From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rustom Mody Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: APL mode Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 10:08:52 +0530 Message-ID: References: <2556707.G5KkrEK5zp@descartes> <2175241.EV4ttzPlpJ@descartes> <52603276.70404@harpegolden.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1382762355 4971 80.91.229.3 (26 Oct 2013 04:39:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2013 04:39:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen_Sauermann?= , emacs-devel To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Oct 26 06:39:20 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VZveh-0002uc-4x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2013 06:39:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33464 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VZveg-0003df-9x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2013 00:39:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VZved-0003da-Ma for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2013 00:39:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VZvec-0007GB-KY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2013 00:39:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pb0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22e]:32878) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1VZvec-0007G6-Ce for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Oct 2013 00:39:14 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pb0-f46.google.com with SMTP id un1so5323725pbc.33 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:39:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qqmZHL2i4GWHU4Bta2OQMWcxo2IGuTFnFbwpqBO9sfw=; b=bKx1vuvnIYs0FJPiqri5aMatbWmDUYn/3Ku4NYKoJ0VwS0V1RB7Y3fEVzfA3uw/rLK WD1FlH9Mm63vq65OyfCQVu8GBMqjb9ar4uVnu7rhO4vW6wmIKRVkYHqnjQ7iBzOgK/4U 32BP3fE16LdQ8MtVnehRyu0tzzh6AHSkUFVoZjpkDUxXVHDTa1e6Hy43RCcIWOJn/916 fhpYCDzUR2RfK6spsfkvgjwSiOU6Q/Xm/PKbdKIpixfOnDHTdvFaR8V0d6E2Bos6X35/ gZnIc0a/rmdP/4FfljkWxSxBvo4aF3QctyVUUZX+EGeFumePy/MFm/iUt+xbis2DmfNp n8zQ== X-Received: by 10.66.230.138 with SMTP id sy10mr14218485pac.103.1382762352289; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.68.233.74 with HTTP; Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:38:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:164552 Archived-At: On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 7:10 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> If there is something fundamentally wrong with this line please let me k= now > > I'm still wondering why a plain old normal well-supported quail > input-method is not a good solution. Obviously I know very little about quail -- so consider this as thoughts for our comments. In quail you need (as far as I understand) some kind of 'herald' character like the '\' for tex input method. In APL programming you need a preponderance of non ASCII characters Some egs from the apl-keyboard in the code I attached: The a-key needs to send a and A and =E2=8D=BA and =E2=8A=96 The g-key needs to send g and G and =E2=88=87 =E2=8D=92 and so on for most of the keys. [All need to send at least 3, majority need to send 4] Using a modifier key like the normal use of shift makes this palatable Having to use a herald key means having to keep heralding -- a PITA. The original solution from Juergen was to use xmodmap and use alt as the modifier key -- quite normal in the APL world. However with Alt (=3DM) gone we lose M-p M-n and above all M-x which makes emacs close to useless My initial attempts were to figure out xmodmap in order to add (rather than to replace) one more modifier key. My findings: 1. I could not make head or tail of xmodmap 2. Even if I did it would be a very X-specific solution ie would not work outside gnu-linux (maybe unix) systems 3. Keyboards are inherently very variable, in particular from 'normal' desktop to laptop All these things considered a low-level but inside emacs (rather than X/OS) solution seems to be most optimal. Finally, my feeling is that if APL is to regain some popularity (which it enjoyed 4-5 decades ago), a variety of input methods would be good -- for different hardware, OSes, usage-profile, tastes. So far I can see these possibilities: 1. Juergen's xmodmap -- use ESC for Alt 2. David's quail-based one 3. Markus Triska's quail-based one (more tex-like than David's) 4. An intermediate one which I am trying to explore Will be happy to hear your thoughts and experiences on this Rusi