From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Rustom Mody Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: "like other editors" [was: Re: Poll about proposed change in DEL (aka Backspace) and Delete], Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 10:35:53 +0530 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015176f03cca22da404ae862934 X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1317791175 3121 80.91.229.12 (5 Oct 2011 05:06:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 05:06:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Le Wang Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Oct 05 07:06:08 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RBJgA-0004MA-TN for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2011 07:06:03 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38479 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RBJgA-000052-Cv for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2011 01:06:02 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:49833) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RBJg4-0008WB-CE for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2011 01:05:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RBJg3-0002d6-7A for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2011 01:05:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:35042) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RBJg3-0002cn-1Q for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Oct 2011 01:05:55 -0400 Original-Received: by iaen33 with SMTP id n33so1894317iae.0 for ; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=ZgTQ17nYBMnOdG3zvjbiiJPJQpToKqdVeRY/xjXY9eE=; b=UsXbFkc47VcGEtS4fS819Y9FpmPO/L1SrPHzfTYKeR1cON5qLY4SL54AuDHd9EEd7k HYf6or+BuzjOB+timXqwL/FJYeXAe5bPISZ2GtX81pRPJkwjEAnYcHoJhf5z2ORm5yAr CuzzIPu95tx5D392qlKvWw9njFo7+E2jKpcMA= Original-Received: by 10.231.41.36 with SMTP id m36mr3653868ibe.48.1317791154187; Tue, 04 Oct 2011 22:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.39.10 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:05:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:82478 Archived-At: --0015176f03cca22da404ae862934 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Le Wang wrote: > On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Rustom Mody > wrote: > > The most customizable editor and arguments and fights about an easily > > settable default? > > Ironic... > > You are proposing a new flame-war where grumpy old men complain that > they have to now add a "emacscality" setting to their init file, and > therefore Free software will lose and "M$", "MS", "Word", "Apple" > will win! > No No not my intention! Ive too much invested into emacs to see it go down the tube. > > The striking thing to me about this whole "debate" - and I stress the > quotes - is that there is a distinct class of Emacs users, who having > climbed the steep learning curve to "master" Emacs are very interested > in keeping the barrier to entry high. Presumably, they do this to > keep themselves feeling special that they've acquired the Emacs skill. > > Please Le Lets not return flames with flames. > They don't even bother to craft arguments for their position on UI > design basis; of which there are few, including Alan Mackenzie's in > the link you posted. All they do is try to appeal to our love of Free > software by trotting out strawmen like "Word", "MS" (or more absurdly > "M$"), and "Apple". > > This is a user interface issue. Yes, rms question was a UI question. Many of the responses suggested that although the details of this question dont bother them much there are larger questions at stake of which this is a secondary/tertiary 'corollary'. Would it not be better to deal with those? > Why can't we just present arguments > as such? I've layed out a specific use-case where this change will > surely help new users. Yes, NEW USERS. They should be the focus. > Not people who already know how to customize their Emacs. > > Yes and no Yes: We should focus on new users No: for the 'only' Lets remember that emacs started out as being unbelievably inclusive [I remember 20 years ago when an emacs guru showed me that he could make emacs into wordstar] So lets start by trying to include free and commercial OSes, old and noob users and back of from this position only when it is seen to be too utopian --0015176f03cca22da404ae862934 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Le Wang <l26wang@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
On Wed, Oct 5, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> The most customizable editor and arguments and fights about an easily<= br> > settable default?
> Ironic...

You are proposing a new flame-war where grumpy old men complain that<= br> they have to now add a "emacscality" setting to their init file, = and
therefore Free software will lose and "M$", "MS", "= ;Word", =A0"Apple"
will win!

No No not my intention!=A0 Ive too much = invested into emacs to see it go down the tube.

The striking thing to me about this whole "debate" - and I stress= the
quotes - is that there is a distinct class of Emacs users, who having
climbed the steep learning curve to "master" Emacs are very inter= ested
in keeping the barrier to entry high. =A0Presumably, they do this to
keep themselves feeling special that they've acquired the Emacs skill.<= br>
Please Le Lets not return flames with flames.
=A0<= br>
They don't even bother to craft arguments for their position on UI
design basis; of which there are few, including Alan Mackenzie's in
the link you posted. =A0All they do is try to appeal to our love of Free software by trotting out strawmen like "Word", "MS" (or= more absurdly
"M$"), and "Apple".

This is a user interface issue. =A0
=A0
Yes, rms= question was a UI question.=A0 Many of the responses suggested that althou= gh the details of this question dont bother them much there are larger ques= tions at stake of which this is a secondary/tertiary 'corollary'.= =A0 Would it not be better to deal with those?
=A0
Why can&= #39;t we just present arguments
as such? =A0I've layed out a specific use-case where this change will surely help new users. =A0Yes, NEW USERS. =A0They should be the focus.
Not people who already know how to customize their Emacs.


Yes and no
Yes:= We should focus on new users
No: for the 'only'

Lets rem= ember that emacs started out as being unbelievably inclusive
[I remember= 20 years ago when an emacs guru showed me that he could make emacs into wo= rdstar]

So lets start by trying to include free and commercial OSes, old and no= ob users and back of from this position only when it is seen to be too utop= ian


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