From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bithov Vinu Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Using unmaintained plugins Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2021 09:12:15 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87o8ea9376.fsf@mbork.pl> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5694"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, Jean Louis To: Marcin Borkowski Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 19 10:13:07 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lYP1n-0001Pn-90 for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 10:13:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33772 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYP1m-0005MN-Ai for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 04:13:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33252) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYP18-0005MD-Gz for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 04:12:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pj1-x102f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f]:33388) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lYP16-0000Gk-57 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 04:12:26 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pj1-x102f.google.com with SMTP id kb13-20020a17090ae7cdb02901503d67f0beso5503477pjb.0 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 01:12:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kzuIPlcl+ZO5dCcPmr4aT1VxVeHdCzhT+deUkFwDqOI=; b=OAOaqsTPBz9OBqCJ7ZDBYPQ/l2R90kZwsAdOxYu4Db64oKHY3aqz/pI4ON7PATOXmY AUqWR+LNnBp33xKl/CcSWBb737gEWe7/Oq4Hn3Cw300G8BV6XD608Aq0y6sPhZjiPoYo fWYHSdjX76jIsp7U/GFc0CHMhl1ewZJTdJDdT6FdwW3pW7OFOM8gVIc1wjKzX8tvHykb C7Ru+8LRcTYSmBnkcu0Z0fJlGFBW0hTEKidygdkPYmot24hAb8nHZPFWNXj8pDjwUgqQ w2to/dtlSLgcIO8DmxDGCbqldwYDVmwx3ZaaJNjfN2tKoCRPN+a3XhE7O0WHWVXEkbpP 2T8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kzuIPlcl+ZO5dCcPmr4aT1VxVeHdCzhT+deUkFwDqOI=; b=HTDBQ+GH8deVJWEvL/NMHBFpk9WIxVkdvE86t6iGd5XQD8zGEdeCDu1lFLwmBgAAIR /c1RToT5BmBa3A/0tzdZYaLFYMtPkLHeEUu78QMh9PGfwNyFWjgPLALrsYZjW6EBqoii fUIqEAWQ/agKxDd89ambQ1lfka6Xmlc9XNsPeaWgu0GHUCLcpMGbZhvD4anX2bmpuqnT kRSq8E5Nm8JqpCcEjBd83D7POwMDrxA0WI+Kjzhvh5tZ8tqVjdMk2XuNpT1GrTX9i8mP ZcM8AnZeqUE4/ijg3o31iha8HWnpKTnIyhPmHxn18uN/mO9wFGOPiQ+boU8PNH4SEhCE l7rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532FCjYLGby1OX3qCktXJvhUexkJNTWO7VszdAGhbUOHtTDz/FzE hJC7bb7xeshW62nkkiAUxl6v6zHZy8jcVDZcXMQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx85QbDG/Uac4j/aqnbozsAoJ1yQUmIe+fk9CNhkViYVdPuS5AqZ92ndfVTLNSgK0+kRPaPKsPS9tAgHq5NeX0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:4406:: with SMTP id s6mr23191632pjg.93.1618819942434; Mon, 19 Apr 2021 01:12:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87o8ea9376.fsf@mbork.pl> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::102f; envelope-from=bithov.vinub@gmail.com; helo=mail-pj1-x102f.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.23 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:129069 Archived-At: Thanks for your input. I think I'll keep using org-drill (and hopefully learn emacs lisp over the years) rather than moving to another spaced repetition application. Since I collected Paul Sexton's org-drill and org-learn.el, there have only been trivial changes, which I have been able to fix (for example, org-drill depends on *cl*, which I was informed by Emacs was deprecated, so I used cl-libify to convert the org-drill.el source to not use *cl*). I can at least hope that changes to Emacs/Org-mode don't cripple it any more than I know how to fix. Having said that, I'll be sure to use it with caution and learn Emacs Lisp and org-mode programming. On that note, does anyone have any resources for learning org-mode programming? Emacs Lisp guides are abundant, but I'm not sure how to learn org-mode programming. The ongoing discussion about the spacing effect and memory seem interesting. I'm leaning towards Mr Borkowski's view; I've been reading memory science and around the forgetting curve in general as a hobby for a good few years and his arguments seem fairly sound. I partly understand Jean Louis' point, but a lot of the points made about mnemotechniques have been addressed by Dr Piotr Wozniak (see here for credentials) pretty extensively here . The point that mnemotechniques can be used solely as a panacea for memory is directly debunked in that article; many of the courses that claim to give the audience "infinite memory" and are self-described "mentalists" are often snake-oil salesman and shills. Jean's point that you ought not to use spaced repetition, because it relies on rote memorization rather than understanding, isn't sound in that: a) no-one versed in the field of spaced repetition and the forgetting curve is advocating substituting understanding for rote memorization through spaced repetition b) in fact, Piotr Wozniak (the first researcher to implement a spaced repetition algorithm on a computer) argues that formulation of knowledge is hugely important in using spaced repetition, as summarised here . The first rule of "formulating knowledge" is "do not learn (ie. memorise using spaced repetition) what you do not understand (ie. what you haven't learned in the traditional sense of the word)". I could debunk each point that Jean made, but the field of spaced repetition is incredibly well documented (mostly by Piotr Wozniak, see his sites here and here ) so going through each point would be a waste of time. I would highly recommend that you read SupermemoGuru in particular, that site is rich in its writing. More generally, the forgetting curve is found everywhere in nature, and attempting to circumvent it using mnemonics is completely futile . In fact, the rate of forgetting is explained by Zipf's Law , which is fantastically explained in a video by Vsauce . *All *memory is subject to the forgetting curve, perhaps forgetting can be delayed through the use of mnemonics, but ultimately, permastore is a myth . I've linked a lot to Piotr Wozniak's writings, so I'd advise that anyone reading it check out the references page so that they can verify his claims, and to ensure that Piotr Wozniak is actually a legitimate researcher. There have been some dubious claims made by Piotr, but, all in all, supermemo.guru seems to be a legitimate site. Org-drill uses SM-2 and SM-5 officially and an experimental SM-8 algorithm, SM in this case standing for Supermemo (the product in which Piotr implemented his spaced repetition algorithms). SM-0 was the first one, SM-2 and SM-5 succeeded it. Up to SM-5, the algorithm was peer reviewed (you can find them and his other research papers here ) but after this, the newer algorithms were not published and instead the algorithms (the latest is SM-18) became a trade secret. You can read about the history of the supermemo algorithm here . There's a fantastic article by Wired that explains in great detail the spacing effect, I'd advise you all read it. It's linked here .