From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs 26.1 release branch created Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:42:26 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20170925190357.GA4651@ACM> <855b1231-2279-4fd7-a2d6-be65435bb8be@default> <20170926202648.GB5190@ACM> <20170927184325.GA4653@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a114dea229a9748055a3b0e88" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1506584590 6412 195.159.176.226 (28 Sep 2017 07:43:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Sep 2017 07:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Philipp Stephani , Drew Adams , Emacs developers To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 28 09:43:06 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dxTTH-00014p-Jz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 09:42:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57805 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dxTTO-0004Ya-UP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 03:43:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36967) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dxTTH-0004YK-UE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 03:43:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dxTTH-0006Uh-47 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 03:42:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ua0-x22d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22d]:46663) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dxTTG-0006US-Vl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 03:42:59 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ua0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id q29so404972uaf.3 for ; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 00:42:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dT8tcF0jgAoJpOO6rjX9J+19RvCadrAucyz/XPCaDRA=; b=abBE2rrJwL3yuLHESQpjVYL3tBy4hTa1THw/A5cn0RdUURjIWhUCyE0khCdvi6ZiOn fBmEBxFE/f6WndZalooBjbf67F/FqEULsHKLGTHqplv6Ou1G67a543buhzS26krGyIb1 EZwa5fCFi0Aq9/ma3CVAsKCa2gmPhGEoZzPRx+WABzsr3R94tvcghkuR9464q0wvjlCa 7+xP0QWx53wRSNjmhfHj1KzUWdZBC19qwu/QJVWE/0BX8rWmghqxEbA3yu4NUJ7LDWQ2 BxR2V6gUC75nbKcFi0PBdEs+2t4VAXS6gmpjYB+H+lFaHaQmaU/tuotWTvwdI3yRh+kP oqZA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dT8tcF0jgAoJpOO6rjX9J+19RvCadrAucyz/XPCaDRA=; b=Me2ni82G8ZyM15x9SVT0Y78w0SGDa3qkAGBe+Jj3fo4S57W7zRCjWIRHiJcAS5pggq O1IQfY7V2jU4P5NUwwC8ekaCRufp0pPxOWWnbaQkCkbggLLYFZfCYCS6bFrn6GKEJQre 30t5QUq5MiunBChAvKu/uFsjuSXwSkG8joW8S9CRWUrSw8dosghY63jIpnWUIhwjjDA9 Brye4/cHCb9Ci/tOTl0u7NjmJ1iGm4apdENfVfW4Raooiot4uhpm/arF8dZ95MZI15lr 9bIPJGlGhSYeVSeUiEMowEcmAVkRYpD2PtqZSm6IOSKzTrrbNLf5aDT/Q5EaWWqOx4tC jVlQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AHPjjUiMjOu3Llscw0YaoWXmOs9IOtJ4Vd8nE8KGF9Q5ceJ5EPZkWWpu 7WTJQrLZg/fiW2uiaqD7D+nu345KdAxn0Pn/7V4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QBM2nwb04HUKYdrRg9E+ZT4PUs7Z6niFSOpfof7MjYIN5EKA9mOFf0hN50XRQtmZhfGTOtVwu0cbhHTwrnITpk= X-Received: by 10.176.27.34 with SMTP id d34mr2600643uai.57.1506584578134; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 00:42:58 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.103.112.131 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Sep 2017 00:42:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170927184325.GA4653@ACM> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22d X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:218845 Archived-At: --001a114dea229a9748055a3b0e88 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > I think this is the wrong way to approach this. What counts here are the > > benefits: by avoiding global mutable state we make code that is easier to > > reason about, easier to test, etc. > > What about the costs? Emacs has a large state, including variable > numbers of buffers, variable variables (libraries can be loaded at any > time), variable properties and text properties, .... > > What you're asserting, I think, is that there is a better way to house > this state rather than "globally". No details of this other way have > been forthcoming. > > > There is simply no real argument for using global mutable state when we > can > > avoid it, ..... > > I suspect that in Emacs we can't. Or if we could, it would be at too > great a cost. > Yes, probably that in Emacs the costs would be too big. My point was about you defending global mutable state as something that is fine to use all the time when it is not. Anyway, this subject is not really welcome and wouldn't be very productive anyway, so I'll remain silent on that issue. Thanks, Philippe --001a114dea229a9748055a3b0e88 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> I think this is the wrong = way to approach this. What counts here are the
> benefits: by avoiding global mutable state we make code that is easier= to
> reason about, easier to test, etc.

What about the costs?=C2=A0 Emacs has a large state, including varia= ble
numbers of buffers, variable variables (libraries can be loaded at any
time), variable properties and text properties, ....

What you're asserting, I think, is that there is a better way to house<= br> this state rather than "globally".=C2=A0 No details of this other= way have
been forthcoming.

> There is simply no real argument for using global mutable state when w= e can
> avoid it, .....

I suspect that in Emacs we can't.=C2=A0 Or if we could, it would be at = too
great a cost.

Yes, probably that in Ema= cs the costs would be too big. My point was about you defending global muta= ble state as something that is fine to use all the time when it is not.

Anyway, this subject is not really welcome and wouldn= 't be very productive anyway, so I'll remain silent on that issue.<= /div>

Thanks,
Philippe
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