From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Namespaces - summary, conclusion Date: Mon, 4 May 2020 11:27:00 +0200 Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="97479"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 04 11:28:02 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jVXOL-000PCr-F8 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 11:28:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58106 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVXOK-0007Kv-GL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 05:28:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50914) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVXNq-0006rZ-1q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 05:27:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x22e.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22e]:38241) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jVXNo-000856-K3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 04 May 2020 05:27:29 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id e25so8954042ljg.5 for ; Mon, 04 May 2020 02:27:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cxtFee0SpiAWpZ0A2gMsoT7wFgjYvvN9m7lMF4fZGJM=; b=mEMhY5kltdzKMd3Xe1pi1iDlP3QxjDx38hG/4eUJDnwnMnL/nECzXbYazFBK3vHpUh xTVGNiI6cl+LuyEgg9oOkSYLmHeZ/0BP7bDl0cVuZGu4PXqZCNROG7wOsu3mWyHTrCUJ xPRk+EmSASPfp2TNgPE4nPGZRxOPfUlLJhAFzhib7LoQc5Aer/+d2czw9WU0riwa6B+9 1MFkaXp4WguIvkN6REsb6+P82705gxiQKTB76/8YaA2YmZfpBzt5M7Pn1+VtxyBdCXla YewYWq/6KTL56NZJdwR4ko0ecZ4eGMVmeyC1WkXLDXhfKo/HQGrr1HJzDNhBZH/Mj7gW ARTA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cxtFee0SpiAWpZ0A2gMsoT7wFgjYvvN9m7lMF4fZGJM=; b=ZfoLjYw6TnjqOuYjf/Qy0rvyqVKuEX83gYOvY5rGEqipaBDpMZi+8x8y/ZNUefsueU I+lbSCDlNz9n8gGUkaWQyYXxwZ1ENffO4Lh3DJKR5XT7xPYVAxHIVPdrPOsbN0TG91AW +eDq4hlJJHF7uB/6UQqPxyv16kfv0pV6Em763XCXBKEooOrFRKwA/SxuttqhtG/0TyDK PKlCCSNdZLK1zytmE54gLXVa8Hv8h+xSdWeoxEfDwgM+7be1dM7ChoioDBMhoPpB170H IXu31/KVeZ7FSFynW35EUienQDC59WTxjZTvBn3qPEQe+FNt/efc1kHs+La/nT4mX6L+ Q1Nw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PuY6af6Q+fQ/1jjlA179QAlfhTGvza8yAjykz1AeUp0rZ94NAn1q jx0TPEPssIyvreBBlvNpSGL+W28lYRpIIZmE497cc5Oa7V4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypICAeaie4H2L2kP9j3mB8Aw48toQOLgKfOPzCAz1via1yoDzexDLY+A5j0F/zRgi6Y89juVYY628/wujJIhw+A= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9e97:: with SMTP id f23mr9570609ljk.228.1588584446334; Mon, 04 May 2020 02:27:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::22e; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x22e.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248799 Archived-At: Hello, I think for my part the amount of bikeshedding done was enough now and I can come to some conclusions. The proposal of aliasing or renaming Elisp functions that some of us feel inadequately named/grouped got mostly a strong resistance by what can be considered iconic figures of this community. I think that cannot be taken lightly. Here's a non exhaustive list of the counter-arguments, roughly ordered how I feel are the best arguments to the not-so-relevant but interesting: - Adding new aliases, while improving the experience of those who like to do an exact search for the regexp "^domain-.*", will degrade the experience of those who like to search the manual "the classic way" using "C-h d" or "C-h a". - Adding new aliases or renaming functions might confuse the users that are used to the current names. For example they might not immediately understand that "re-search-in-string" means "string-match" and have to look it up, wasting time. - Adding new aliases increases the memory usage, the size of the manual, and the amount of things to maintain. - Emacs Lisp is fundamentaly a language where all concepts intermix and thus is chaotic by nature, trying to organize it into categories is against history and does not make sense. - Even if we agree not to even touch the function name other than adding a prefix (e.g `keep-lines` becoming `buffer-keep-lines`), people will disagree on which prefix to use or about the genericity of a function making it unprefixable, or that's it's a crime to history, and thus consensus will be impossible to attain for almost every proposed function. Given this is more or less the position held by Alan, Eli, Richard, Drew and Jo=C3=A3o I think the chances of seeing new aliases is close to 0. Until now every one of the proposed aliases (in string- or regexp-) were rejected for arguably good reasons but the message is pretty clear, I think aliases in Emacs core are a dead end (for now, that might change later) and will only live in libraries in MELPA (or ELPA is authors care). So, the altenatives proposed are, ordered by chances of seeing it happening= : - Not rename anything, write some completion function that first completing-read one of the section at https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/index.html, then using tricks to collect all function names there completing-read that list of functions. Might be bound to a new "C-h ". - Improve the sorting algorithm so somehow the function names associated with a topic are automatically but to the top when you search one of the "obvious" keywords like "alist" or "regexp". The path toward that solution is pretty unclear to me, feel free to expand on it. - Add namespaces to Emacs Lisp. Then there are other discussions going on, like the manual not offering a "tutorial view" with highlighted examples, but I think these are other discussions and should be discussed on their own. Kind regards, Philippe