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From: Philippe Vaucher <philippe.vaucher@gmail.com>
To: "João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	tomas@tuxteam.de, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>,
	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [ELPA] New package: transient
Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 13:39:48 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAGK7Mr4KwONVZ1qrmB9e_80o_r+hb=ndindj75Xm7WwDLSciAw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALDnm50PGiTUC4qRd-MfXGRX5duAGTWXXgY5xkvg1PWu2vX1cA@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1574 bytes --]

>
> > Interesting point. I think that could work, but wouldn't it be much
> easier if the language itself was self-documenting?
>
> Maybe, but that entails changing the language, by definition.  And you
> will face resistance because languages are things people kinda grow
> accustomed to.  Imagine if I told you the French language should now
> also include all the words of Portuguese, because, you know, they're
> just better. Even worse with macros. It's like I told you not only you
> have to learn Portuguese words, but its grammar, too.
>

Well I propose to add new-style APIs. People can still use the old ones.

But yeah, I'm coming to the conclusion that even adding a new-style API is
too disruptive. If it happens It'll probably live outside of Emacs in MELPA.

I'm not sure I like this simplification, but there seem to be two
communities of Emacs users, the "traditional" one and the "github" one.
Both have their perspective on how things should be, and it seems that both
communities have trouble understanding how the other community function.

It's been several time now that the "github community" proposed changes
that looked "evident improvements" to them but got hit by a wall of
incomprehension/complexity (I'm not saying this proposal is one of them,
but what comes often is "why not gitlab? how come s.el is not in Emacs
core?", etc). I'm not sure if there is a way forward on this, it just is
that way. I hope that in the future we can understand each others better
and find good compromises quicker, without all the noise.

Kind regards,
Philippe

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  reply	other threads:[~2020-05-02 11:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 238+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-28 13:01 [ELPA] New package: transient Jonas Bernoulli
     [not found] ` <jwv4kt3d1r8.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <87v9ljo5d0.fsf@bernoul.li>
     [not found]     ` <jwvh7x3bfoe.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <87ftcnxu5m.fsf@bernoul.li>
2020-04-29  8:29         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29  9:26           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29  9:50             ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 10:05               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 10:17                 ` tomas
2020-04-29 10:33                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 10:52                     ` tomas
2020-04-30 12:44                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-04-30 13:28                         ` tomas
2020-04-30 14:26                           ` Namespacing Emacs's core (was: [ELPA] New package: transient) Stefan Monnier
2020-04-30 15:08                             ` tomas
2020-04-30 18:23                             ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 18:56                               ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 19:02                                 ` tomas
2020-04-30  2:30                   ` [ELPA] New package: transient Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  2:49                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  6:33                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02  2:24                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02  7:04                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02  8:09                             ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02  9:05                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02  9:19                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 10:11                                   ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 10:33                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 10:56                                       ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 10:59                                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 11:09                                         ` Use elisp--xref-backend in *Apropos* and *Help* (Was Re: [ELPA] New package: transient) João Távora
2020-05-02 14:03                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-03  2:08                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 11:22                                         ` [ELPA] New package: transient Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 11:52                                           ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 12:08                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 12:09                                           ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 12:14                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 12:22                                               ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 12:54                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 17:33                                     ` Drew Adams
2020-05-04  3:07                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-04 16:04                                         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02  9:53                                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 10:39                                   ` João Távora
2020-05-02 11:10                                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 11:17                                       ` João Távora
2020-05-02 11:39                                         ` Philippe Vaucher [this message]
2020-05-02 12:02                                           ` João Távora
2020-05-02 12:11                                             ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 12:20                                               ` João Távora
2020-05-02 12:36                                                 ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 12:59                                                   ` João Távora
2020-05-02 13:02                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 13:12                                                     ` João Távora
2020-05-02 12:28                                               ` tomas
2020-05-02 12:22                                           ` tomas
2020-05-03  3:43                                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-03  4:24                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-04  3:08                                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02 17:48                                         ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 14:50                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 14:57                                       ` João Távora
2020-05-02 17:42                                     ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 10:54                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 11:47                                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 12:04                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 14:56                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 15:37                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 15:51                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-02 16:09                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 13:59                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-02 14:10                                   ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 14:12                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 14:26                                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 15:29                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 15:43                                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 16:05                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 16:12                                             ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 16:26                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 16:42                                                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 18:27                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-03  3:43                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-03  7:47                                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-03 19:46                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-03 21:18                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-03 22:04                                               ` João Távora
2020-05-04  0:41                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-04  3:09                                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02 16:48                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-02 17:17                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 18:10                                         ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 18:30                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 18:37                                             ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 18:45                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02 19:12                                                 ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 19:44                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 18:32                                           ` Yuan Fu
2020-05-02 20:41                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-02 20:39                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-02 21:00                                           ` João Távora
2020-05-02 21:53                                             ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 22:13                                               ` João Távora
2020-05-04  3:07                                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02 21:27                                           ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-03 14:45                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 15:03                                             ` João Távora
2020-05-03 15:11                                               ` Joost Kremers
2020-05-03 15:28                                               ` C-h f and C-h v (was: [ELPA] New package: transient) Stefan Monnier
2020-05-03 17:41                                                 ` João Távora
2020-05-03 17:44                                                   ` João Távora
2020-05-03 16:21                                               ` [ELPA] New package: transient Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 15:17                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-03 16:32                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 21:13                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-04 13:52                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-04 15:14                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-04 15:55                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-04 18:41                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-04 18:58                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 16:23                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 16:47                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 17:04                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 17:29                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 17:42                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 18:58                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-04  0:04                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-03 19:49                                                       ` João Távora
2020-05-03 23:47                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-04  1:01                                                           ` João Távora
2020-05-04  1:28                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-04 18:05                                                               ` João Távora
2020-05-04 14:24                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-04 15:23                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-04 16:00                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-04 17:31                                                               ` Drew Adams
2020-05-04  1:13                                                     ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-04 14:22                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-05  8:23                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-05 14:48                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-05 15:39                                                             ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-05 16:13                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-05 16:33                                                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-05 15:44                                                             ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-05 16:15                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-05 16:40                                                                 ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-05  8:27                                                         ` Jean-Christophe Helary
2020-05-03 21:04                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-04 13:51                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 16:50                                               ` João Távora
2020-05-03 16:54                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-03 17:43                                                   ` João Távora
2020-05-04  3:08                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02 18:57                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 19:15                                         ` 조성빈
2020-05-02 19:59                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-05-02 20:47                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-02 14:22                                   ` João Távora
2020-04-29 13:12                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 13:42                   ` tomas
2020-04-29 13:50                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 17:03                       ` Robert Pluim
2020-04-29 19:25                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 17:51                       ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-04-29 19:24                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 13:53                     ` Stefan Kangas
2020-04-29 14:01                       ` tomas
2020-04-29 14:20                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 15:25                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 18:13                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-30 18:19                         ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 18:41                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-30 19:26                             ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 19:34                               ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 22:47                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-30 22:20                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-01  3:13                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-01  3:15                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-05-01 15:36                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-05-01 16:05                                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02  2:27                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02  7:07                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-05-02  8:06                                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02 17:08                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-04-30 19:31                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-29 17:27                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-04-29 19:01                     ` tomas
2020-04-29 19:31                     ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 11:51                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-04-30 12:38                         ` tomas
2020-04-30 17:30                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-04-30 17:53                             ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 18:42                               ` tomas
2020-04-30 18:41                             ` tomas
2020-04-30 18:14                           ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 18:58                             ` tomas
2020-04-30 19:13                               ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-30 19:33                                 ` tomas
2020-04-30 20:54                                 ` Alan Mackenzie
2020-04-30 22:46                                   ` chad
2020-05-02  2:27                                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  8:23                                   ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02  2:24                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-30 22:04                               ` Keeping it kind Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-05-01  7:17                                 ` tomas
2020-05-01  8:31                                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-05-02  2:24                                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02  2:27                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  2:51                       ` [ELPA] New package: transient Richard Stallman
2020-04-29 20:02                     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-04-30  1:08                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-29 13:19                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 14:28                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 14:51                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-30  2:28                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-29 13:32               ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-29 13:43                 ` Philippe Vaucher
2020-04-29 14:17                 ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-29 14:19                   ` Yuan Fu
2020-04-30  2:28                   ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-29 15:31                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-04-29 15:48                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-29 16:05                     ` Drew Adams
2020-05-01 17:38                 ` João Távora
2020-05-01 18:03                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-04-30  2:30               ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-29 14:56           ` Drew Adams
2020-04-29 12:52         ` Adam Porter
2020-04-30  2:29 ` Richard Stallman
2020-04-30 10:50   ` Phil Sainty
2020-05-01  2:52     ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-01  5:36       ` Phil Sainty
2020-05-02  2:25         ` Richard Stallman
2020-05-02  2:30           ` T.V Raman
2020-05-01 10:40       ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-05-01 15:16         ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2020-05-02  2:24           ` Richard Stallman
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2020-04-30 11:43 Zhu Zihao
     [not found] <<87368npxw4.fsf@bernoul.li>
     [not found] ` <<jwv4kt3d1r8.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <<87v9ljo5d0.fsf@bernoul.li>
     [not found]     ` <<jwvh7x3bfoe.fsf-monnier+emacs@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <<87ftcnxu5m.fsf@bernoul.li>
     [not found]         ` <<CAGK7Mr52_xBMYnPTO4XZ5EqvMji0pKD_YmqKHQzVo2HMCXd0KA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]           ` <<83y2qezlpd.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]             ` <<CAGK7Mr57NeMeXk5kT4fqPUGP_C1y9g8XfL8S4oXN=w=Hy8MJEA@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]               ` <<83tv12zjx1.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                 ` <<CAGK7Mr7i6uMH1JRnj2E1hY5vSwiGkVwQARLHq0Q_wMn7aBKP9Q@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                   ` <<837dxyz83p.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                     ` <<CAGK7Mr50tQ+DeWvxT7O6E7Pm0jg7TFCxhS-iMeW03pgBcp8Lhw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                       ` <<978f970b-b5c2-bd83-39da-f632d069d7d5@yandex.ru>
     [not found]                         ` <<CAGK7Mr5-sYDJBWxeSE6VoAJkYxLgffDkJPRv9g7cd9qME0nLEw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                           ` <<98ab19cf-680b-9cd2-7c42-89dd0b2f470a@yandex.ru>
     [not found]                             ` <<CAGK7Mr5Qu-4iKvZuWmA0uswUrmZYgQmv4Dw=CibRjwUk1PggUw@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                               ` <<E1jUhsZ-0006mV-Rb@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]                                 ` <<83y2qau86i.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-05-02 16:51                                   ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                 ` <<20200429101755.GF24737@tuxteam.de>
     [not found]                   ` <<E1jTyxu-0008FM-LM@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]                     ` <<E1jULk7-0007ZA-OQ@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]                       ` <<838sicw4do.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                         ` <<E1jUhpj-00064u-VY@fencepost.gnu.org>
     [not found]                           ` <<83zhaqu89z.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                             ` <<CAGK7Mr48xznD4uc0zxDRqUrYGbsWU4dg2t_CfnpKipzV7_-xbg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                               ` <<83sggiu2p9.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-05-02 17:16                                 ` Drew Adams
     [not found]                                 ` <<83r1w2u20y.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                   ` <<CAGK7Mr7z+L+1Ziptjvc8wBmZDooLfonuL3VOC8OGex+z1d7Oqg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                     ` <<83lfmatym6.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-05-02 17:36                                       ` Drew Adams

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