From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Philippe Vaucher Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Imports / inclusion of s.el into Emacs Date: Sat, 2 May 2020 17:20:16 +0200 Message-ID: References: <831ro2tqqx.fsf@gnu.org> <4a1fd3f4-df92-c756-9874-4d07b54148ac@yandex.ru> <83v9lesapw.fsf@gnu.org> <83pnbms9m8.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059770705a4abd7d7" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="116167"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Dmitry Gutov , Stefan Monnier , Richard Stallman , Emacs developers To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 02 17:21:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jUtxP-000U6U-8a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 17:21:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44320 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUtxO-0002MK-AT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 11:21:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53444) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUtwd-0001td-Ke for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 11:20:48 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUtwd-0006ag-0z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 May 2020 11:20:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x129.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::129]:45261) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jUtwb-0006Zj-6z; Sat, 02 May 2020 11:20:45 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x129.google.com with SMTP id f8so6062597lfe.12; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:20:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zJ+fBXpJ/Lqe2cWcuuqkC+PnT+KkJwHbchqqlcZ8fZg=; b=IA24UCWkG9eR33UTV8APf5Dcf3qMxJCBJX9ayXFGDko71Uq1oEd1QT8xSPUW0oQFoL FRsXoZJKJlHh/0nbAJAZSC2+Dz1caNvqpOCnrltYLJIgglTkNaeAnAYlUdTaPXEKXDlH rnBNxT2xDXOymCTQTGGOL05eiif/VzAF78zo1BHePlQiBoG7MUSr3tjGG2FoODpFU//i 9bY241ipiOrvkOnroDAXQfUj1LwjTsU28kuoy8hx+243YUpxSXiyvX9w1MzogLjYuKpR L40mIdyEdeVnM9U92zqJXDSu/3iFN47oVGSO8oTHtZBU7VgHvCcGSrWvu4xykErAeDTu 52Wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zJ+fBXpJ/Lqe2cWcuuqkC+PnT+KkJwHbchqqlcZ8fZg=; b=GPvylX1hIu1GK69ID1X+/L5nowlWHqf4ohKMV0Vp/LhR0uv13iwT78myvfPsTimenL cj0XVWKOpKCc0buhzAorwEJLSv7T7I42ybeNViYZrz7/xGi2raAV2pATn8MCkBIJXqNa kQTgsmPnCDVAmODRfq6bp0waDr86S4JauJFmEPTysia+gxNmKg0CRhvBrnUt5bPl9qvT i3EuQAQ9muJ2UT9HmcvAhA+v6EJnNNm+9BjKBgTWyYEAgFn+QSz2F16w2G9ycc/ACWPf 6TIkRIw66weLRvUnm6c1cN9a6a+Gk6xCFaFnNz2iKsUl/2zpOl7Ch3A1c6itqj/NxOzU FBhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGi0PubugAk5fqS7ypA23CtUO6SWTVJXrWl4Snn2HX033oPQQOgO2kIh MEH/SnaGomRBkYtVThVDwSU+ozv8LrVwokSSVqk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APiQypKFtigKY+LcZEjmHRj98hBiP2jmDGaZ82yuYQMO4NkLh6h0kbvtfbrQWZUJNb/k6jUY31FMVNCgHwE8TtY/WlM= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:53a:: with SMTP id o26mr5882447lfc.111.1588432842879; Sat, 02 May 2020 08:20:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::129; envelope-from=philippe.vaucher@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x129.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: [-] PROGRAM ABORT : Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). Location : parse_addr6(), p0f-client.c:67 X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::129 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:248464 Archived-At: --00000000000059770705a4abd7d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > But when I'm discovering the API, it's a gold mine. > > Some of us are trying to tell you is that the Elisp manual is a > gold mine, too. If you see parts where it is not, report it. > Lisp languages are traditionally organized differently. > Thanks for the perspective. The parts where it is not is a gold mine is the amount of hops we have to do: Say I want to quickly remember how strings work in Emacs, how you manipulate them, etc. With a few keystrokes I end up on https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Strings-and-Characters.html. >From there I have to select a topics, read it partially, go back, read another topic, all that while skipping paragraphs most of the time (but that can be improved with my keep-lines trick). There is no manual entry where I see all these classified string functions at once, and "C-h d string" makes my emacs so laggy that I cannot use it, also most of the entries are irrelevant. Now compare that to https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.6/String.html. Do you see how faster that is or is just my lack of habit of using the manual? Or with https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.6/Thread.html, see how you directly have an example of common usage? I guess you could argue that I'm not used to having to read big chunks of text to get the information I'm looking for, that's I think a valid criticism. > If you like some "overview by topic" tool, you yourself have > shown it can be built easily (in that "keep-lines" example). > Let's do that first and then think it it's still worth including > many new foreign words, not the reverse. That's probably the path of least changes, I agree. Design-wise I still think that Elisp would be a better language if it was properly namespaced, given the language itself does not support namespaces. But that's arguable even tho I think there are more strong points in favor of using namespaces than against it. --00000000000059770705a4abd7d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> But when I'm discovering the API, it's a go= ld mine.

Some of us are trying to tell you is that the Elisp manual is a
gold mine, too. If you see parts where it is not, report it.
Lisp languages are traditionally organized differently.

Thanks for the perspective. The parts where it is not is a= gold mine is the amount of hops we have to do:

Sa= y I want to quickly remember how strings work in Emacs, how you manipulate = them, etc. With a few keystrokes I end up on=C2=A0ht= tps://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Strings-and-Charact= ers.html. From there I have to select a topics, read it partially, go b= ack, read another topic, all that while skipping paragraphs most of the tim= e (but that can be improved with my keep-lines trick).

=
There is no manual entry where I see all these classified string funct= ions at once, and "C-h d string" makes my emacs so laggy that I c= annot use it, also most of the entries are irrelevant.

=
Now compare that to=C2=A0https://ruby-doc.org/core-2.6/String.html. Do you see how fast= er that is or is just my lack of habit of using the manual? Or with=C2=A0https://ruby-doc.org/co= re-2.6/Thread.html, see how you directly have an example of common usag= e?

I guess you could argue that I'm not used t= o having to read big chunks of text to get the information I'm looking = for, that's I think a valid criticism.
=C2=A0
If you like some "overview by = topic" tool, you yourself have
shown it can be built easily (in that "keep-lines" example).
Let's do that first and then think it it's still worth including many new foreign words, not the reverse.

Th= at's probably the path of least changes, I agree.

<= div>Design-wise I still think that Elisp would be a better language if it w= as properly namespaced, given the language itself does not support namespac= es. But that's arguable even tho I think there are more strong points i= n favor of using namespaces than against it.
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