From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: What is the most useful potential feature which Emacs lacks? Date: Sat, 30 May 2020 07:23:03 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87k11htj96.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87pnb7u70r.fsf@red-bean.com> <87y2pvrzho.fsf@dustycloud.org> <87y2pvqhuj.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnaog13i.fsf@red-bean.com> <87h7w0f03x.fsf@red-bean.com> <5bae1fd5-52ef-46f1-c728-8d5940bf5bbc@yandex.ru> <20200528205249.GC919@breton.holly.idiocy.org> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000009e2f805a6d6c2b5" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="22716"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: cwebber@dustycloud.org, Alan Third , Richard Stallman , emacs-devel@gnu.org, kfogel@red-bean.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, dgutov@yandex.ru, ndame@protonmail.com To: Arthur Miller Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat May 30 07:23:47 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jetyF-0005nz-6K for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 30 May 2020 07:23:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39662 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jetyE-00060l-5N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 30 May 2020 01:23:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51502) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jetxk-0005ad-3D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 30 May 2020 01:23:16 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]:54531) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jetxj-0006gA-04; Sat, 30 May 2020 01:23:15 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id h4so5801175wmb.4; Fri, 29 May 2020 22:23:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=dl58naaeTd2U9UBfoVaypOYElSo8h3NnAwlKNrcIJZ0=; b=EVCtIXqZ1my+Vekifcl2FhSBKMwoHk5+tT0AjMXKeFIP9I/kPm3ZQMLAq31iH0bLR3 qne0EudtPokJlPp8X+MUoGlcwYYhQWONmPe4re+GFDtCtIkrlxL8/g9LJVlJnfyJCTQs l38fpnRmpBafIsesL/2YI1cY75pJrWToKyD5BvRMEUxiWw6g0ChXVeIIe+/FtMQLBzsP /Ygq3iCCOEt7+zmQtegIOE03x5v7vWMovHPAHvuHpwRFnvR+sYL3FuSEe0o7710SfgpE QtMz4Owj/8ndTnLsXhaghCqzPPlZbEi8ykH4Um9y3uPXmUIFXSBA/iHiZaxLFx70mdXg 534w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dl58naaeTd2U9UBfoVaypOYElSo8h3NnAwlKNrcIJZ0=; b=eYB+qs2J4x6VeIuUH6Eq0Mi1EnJqwvo3pumFALj0hIVOa3wxoGDTVydmYm8Zr5tINU TcerZsctXIjtwl4UumrWggHffwLP1qZtqFohLZYYdvJQm6nFvfTJcgmwCCvBoEj/cjIK q5iF7oSezDT6COFgvJaEPvjqYGWhBNf/Q39p4of43mvhaKig6BscVhaz7oWQV2mHqBRQ jtgGwNH2VVhHi6S1B/Ta2BlCGy/d8b5VBj2kKDCAdIx9IWQUcBKQbqsylyV48iGIlnIl x4EFLJlekZfGmJjIcBvczAc+VkhlxXMbv3q9dk+RJ+G5EX4LW3fM1Bddl0loHQA6eplw PgpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5333Aq5THxCrzpE1Rp3IQGk1hN33OIZ2EfWhuSV/XJ2s0OCXggRY XfmsHqz1kCNCy3gdTsm5of6KLHv/lE9lWQRMzBE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz9PH7QNgoCXk61M5zMqP+ucx9zn44oM6c8zTBlpUwz/rXzQmeMLVtcWg6JT08/FIrcmz+PkGvTLQqkps9ZVjI= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:49:: with SMTP id 70mr10989300wma.184.1590816192191; Fri, 29 May 2020 22:23:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::32f; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wm1-x32f.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251639 Archived-At: --00000000000009e2f805a6d6c2b5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le ven. 29 mai 2020 =C3=A0 15:20, Arthur Miller a =C3=A9crit : > Richard Stallman writes: > > > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > > This seems like a reasonable solution to me. Alternatively perhaps = we > > > just need to sell C-x C-f as "open a file or directory" rather than > > > "find a file"? > > > > That would make our initial explanations more complex, and that might > > lead to more confusion than clarity. > > > > I think it is better to explain this wrinkle when the user encounters i= t, > > not before. > > Aren't users encountering that wrinkle first time they open a file? > > Observe there are even more wrinkles there to explain: if file does not > exist Emacs creates a new buffer, and if user ment a directory, the > buffer will still be just a plain file not a dir. And what about if > there are some non-existent directories on the way? Emacs asks if user > wants them to be created ... so there are quite a few wrinkles in that > one, not the simplest behaviour to explain anyway :-). > But those are consistent with how other software behaves. The user won't think of a buffer as much as of a not-yet-saved file, but that's also consistent with what emacs does. Other software would force the directory to be created before opening the file, but that's minor I believe. Being able to open a directory just like a file, on the other hand, is not usual. Web browsers can do it, but that's because their "files" are almost like directories. I personally like the ido approach of having different keys for accessing files and directories. Simple operations like listing files or creating a new one are done directly in the ido buffer, no need for dired. Thibaut --00000000000009e2f805a6d6c2b5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Le ven. 29 mai 2020 =C3=A0 15:20, Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> a =C3=A9crit= =C2=A0:
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example.= ]]]
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> This seems like a reasonable solution to me. Alternat= ively perhaps we
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> just need to sell C-x C-f as "open a file or dir= ectory" rather than
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0> "find a file"?
>
> That would make our initial explanations more complex, and that might<= br> > lead to more confusion than clarity.
>
> I think it is better to explain this wrinkle when the user encounters = it,
> not before.

Aren't users encountering that wrinkle first time they open a file?

Observe there are even more wrinkles there to explain: if file does not
exist Emacs creates a new buffer, and if user ment a directory, the
buffer will still be just a plain file not a dir. And what about if
there are some non-existent directories on the way? Emacs asks if=C2=A0 use= r
wants them to be created ... so there are quite a few wrinkles in that
one, not the simplest behaviour to explain anyway :-).



Being able to open a directory just like a file, on the other= hand, is not usual. Web browsers can do it, but that's because their &= quot;files" are almost like directories.=C2=A0

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