From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 07:33:27 +0200 Message-ID: References: <30addebe-999b-c1cc-a8d8-27aba3fac566@gmx.com> <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24925"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , emacs-devel To: Jean Louis Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Oct 12 07:34:34 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kRqTi-0006NM-5Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 07:34:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44322 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRqTh-0006dG-41 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:34:33 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43696) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRqSs-0005ez-EJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:33:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::436]:33363) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kRqSq-0001lL-Or; Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:33:42 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id b8so4400784wrn.0; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 22:33:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=WejtxbotiBjxVJH7qtGa0BKQ4w2abkRiHeU1Pqrspxs=; b=Udt5tjPlrniYL9iyAyzQeDZz5Q6QYRggg27oYN0Ey9VdiV0Wyd8T2f1VY8V34KKZ+n IICV1dJZmfoaEcQfk0/Dw/fVHzba7cJmWRlExKeR/uH36WUjru7u5bO5tOJ/vWgkjSDl Ml1xTaGszazNcVM8xfgkvi8NaAkS6unTQiz+adu21+WQbYy9V87coMLlbNEg4kvUVe94 Vk2f04UfFs9+uyyU7reeVz09/hzwKZwqn7uepocDahMVc8FW1G8dqvo4MyD7XuQvPuOk WfESopkFIdtNzXvDCIcXW57BgzlAINcOt76LkZYadrHNi7yZvaM0fWbUtODN3puQm9B4 IXuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WejtxbotiBjxVJH7qtGa0BKQ4w2abkRiHeU1Pqrspxs=; b=iwwaoo/C2kI+srqGaJifAkdGjfgCqQGw0WrBOC58DY8WR6kzSUzBSl7lPmiXiA7/HB YrR4/TmmhBnfrLWDTiurCOCpitCR0UWrc+MuXzCOly4U612zFxyXalU0ex8AZtk8Qdwt krAOzrzyuwVGCVzSQ2KgIUQcdtiQYRn0lYkzdRW6pE4Me9J1qGJi49hrc2qD8TIiIBDf YspgtgsafGM+nyvEq/XvOJ5Yv12fPLafTzqR+9WG3adDSsU++hsWQBcopz4/3Ea140VH LbG1oqJ7TrDbh6Q8j6/ZrgfsFryMyKcRThSRw47koD0FazR5KkerRgc/nI+HUPGug12g rsOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532+YL9XDeGr3zEPpu+pu6fBSWQVULvVRW1apkmvjKQ+5CA7PhDF TrU31KpthvPfLbAiS7p/ySetbJEKg3xcyM5NoBg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzEMMVNmA5WsrowPZayYeljB16xjYPrqwP7N8NSMOGwtA5LoRkz9u+vjLje6XDzqW+/Ho05uui20SHbrEYtqFs= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:498a:: with SMTP id r10mr28229568wrq.106.1602480818812; Sun, 11 Oct 2020 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::436; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x436.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257444 Archived-At: > > Just as a reminder, here is what the email starter suggested: > > > > > a survey for Emacs users to better grasp the diversity and various usages > > out there > > > > There is nothing about taking practical decisions or encouraging free > > software (or anything) there. > > Every opinion poll survey has a purpose, normally the purpose is to > find out what majority wish and want to improve the product or service > and thus reach or gain more customers, strike it, users. Yes it has a purpose, I quoted it above. To understand "the diversity and various usages out there". Specifically excluding some popular usages defeats that purpose. If anything, wouldn't we want to get an idea how many Emacs users currently use a non-free package repository? On the other hand, there are no questions in the suggested list about what people want. > > Would it be acceptable to put all major package repos in the list, > > with a warning saying that melpa is not a free software repository? > > Are there many package repositories? I know of three, there will be > fourth soon elpa.nongnu.org or similar. Yes, that sounds about right. > They do provide free software naturally as packages should be GPL so > far I understand (not sure), but if they wrap non free software or > have pointers to non free software, such recommendation would be > contrary to principles why GNU Emacs have been made as free software. I don't understand why a question in a survey would be seen as a recommendation. That's similar, in a sense, to those social surveys asking people if they have done drugs. I don't think those want to encourage people to take drugs. > > The same warning could be used when mentioning windows, non-free > > IDEs, etc. > > Warning you mention is used on Emacs download page, see > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/download.html Great, so there is precedent ! Why is it acceptable and sufficient on the main download page but not acceptable in a survey? Those words are a bit too harsh when applied to Melpa, I hope that we agree on that. And nobody likes to read propaganda (no matter how justified) in a survey, so having such a long tirade could again lead to selection bias. But, for example, wouldn't something like below be both short and explicit enough? "- Melpa (Note: Emacs and the GNU project DO NOT ENDORSE package repositories which encourage non-free software, see https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/)"