From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "modern" colors Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:40:04 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> <20200909165723.kdnwicwvplmezusr@Ergus> <20200910102000.2t6tsju745xutg7u@Ergus> <20200910110832.ko66gqnqo4l664d6@Ergus> <20200911134225.zhnlq7cdhmu2iraj@Ergus> <20200911221435.go7b5kz2zcvxp2ft@Ergus> <83sgbnecka.fsf@gnu.org> <83een7e48t.fsf@gnu.org> <837dsxdafi.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e4b72805af363f30" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="38408"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ergus , casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, ams@gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, ghe@sdf.org, tecosaur@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 20:41:24 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHWwG-0009tD-G7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 20:41:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35468 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHWwF-0004Vd-FX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:41:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:53278) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHWvI-00042S-Jh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:40:24 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x443.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::443]:39338) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHWvF-0002nP-Bw; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 14:40:24 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x443.google.com with SMTP id a17so16347644wrn.6; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:40:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=4U8BnTSF/m3gy0G6pRf8NFRYXB8MZ/WJwBPNlok+iKg=; b=ZGm9m6ug0sB91WeOh7S8gi95RTDKeR/TU4Krf24HUz7fzFOmaTBR7b4SjQTan8mq7g k0MBQNCFVpqfZHaegG7WnlaqwKtFFyjj10bVX9eKvxhlqYIsX5oeP68+80c4nOQLABA9 pWk+U9rPBT0jH/NlGCkslDpzqOoRQ+gtGvzTw+gnrodPQwOt21Y/4ua7bAFzpKRYEm9J AnE+g0y9GcVIkYZqSBy2s//Th05Xz03gZvtnh5zS4qXeZZ40YV2fAMajpfXEBb+h/fG3 7eVKRGXY9U0sQ+yCSzCrd5d8kumC5YB1X2pm1F2Kqh4jjMoc38VcAEvz5kVjW8i0teKl q4Fg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4U8BnTSF/m3gy0G6pRf8NFRYXB8MZ/WJwBPNlok+iKg=; b=gK4ipzyz+H0D3OZ11yoLxcvnikqWyC+0qLbv/GFIOxcNYVKeHKmZDBymQoj2GlSHSh jqtqmSDG1QTayXBm12LCDd6FzmDvdPirnh2MRazXVR6HisjRoyaFalXFpwgMAByVruGK p63F+r0NAxqo6HqZVJQj4NE3brzD6LDDzAaCgC1OpVZpNcZQuaFf+DAECO+uO/gbQizL 5wen+/O5EBvHY8LMJrugZ0Q1m1ufg7pbLjypwIIww7H0ZLsuNJpOkpnoQ6LKVdGGzy2h 7eK++KozRY0LaPnmEywkxOYigysf16NU6CjZX27VPR2TyoyGAe5V5X4hNQ0zaZQMWs5n zMsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530DKN7xllEUKRz9Rr2RFzFLMY7oqb1s0JKaVvsc7pQPRqnM582f ve0g0HYIzgIZOTFaYRqD9lL5zVFke9JPELnbJzN5UQYFwOMeDA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx9WiIJrSQwL6UVs6L3tsg7p1ZZvkWxdRL7hGKlVQwliqEXiJhN57OpCJc5U5XFzkMUHvH44JyMrZSqbZb1IXA= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f3cd:: with SMTP id g13mr12125322wrp.298.1600022418600; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 11:40:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <837dsxdafi.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::443; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x443.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255556 Archived-At: --000000000000e4b72805af363f30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le dim. 13 sept. 2020 =C3=A0 16:21, Eli Zaretskii a =C3=A9cr= it : > > From: Thibaut Verron > > Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 07:51:53 +0200 > > Cc: Ergus , casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, > ams@gnu.org, > > monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, ghe@sdf.org, tecosaur@gmail.com > > > > > The menu we have in C-mouse-3 does not show the most basic options > like copy, paste, and so on > > to > > > access them fast. > > > > Why should it? We show the menu for the current major mode, which is > > IMO more useful than basic editing. > > > > Is it? What feature of your major mode do you use more often than > copy/paste? > > Typing characters, of course. I hope you will not suggest that we > should have a menu item for inserting a character. > Of course not, the keyboard shortcut for character insertion is not surprising. But basic operations which are not insertion? Copy/cut/paste, undo/redo, maybe search/-and-replace... All those are very common operations, none depend on the major mode, and all require to either learn an unusual keyboard shortcut, use the toolbar, or navigate the menu-bar. My point is that frequency of operations is not the only criterion for > what to put on the context menu, not even the main one. The most > important criterion, IMO, is what are the important operations that > would be otherwise much harder to discover and invoke. > I agree, but I'd say that ease of invokation should take priority over ease of discoverability. The menu bar offers just as much discoverability, but the ease of use is greatly decreased there. I have only one data point at hand, but I happen to have helped a new user set up an emacs environment recently. They were happy with finding options in the menu bar, and (a selective list of) major mode commands in the tool bar. The major-mode submenus of the menu bar were overwhelming on the other hand, and finding the same menus on the context menu was not much help. Not finding common operations such as copy and paste in the context menu was more disconcerting (and directly led them to discovering and activating CUA). Ditto when their spell-check (again, activated without my help via the menu) flagged some words and they didn't find the corrections in the context menu. We decided that the menu for the current major mode is a very good > approximation to what the user would like to have at his/her > fingertips. Was it perhaps at the same time as it was decided that this menu should require a modifier key in the default bindings? ;) The context menu in emacs is underused to say the least, and I'd blame that on both the hidden binding and the redundant contents. Sadly, by the point users know enough to know how to address/report the poor condition of the context menu, they simply don't care anymore because they can get everything done with keyboard shortcuts and menu/tool bar. There's probably some space for improving that, but I > think the basic principle that the context menu should depend heavily > on the major mode is valid and should be preserved. > I believe that it should depend on the context in a wide sense. That includes the major mode, but also the minor modes, the thing at point, whether the region is active, etc. Copy-cut-paste and auto-correct suggestions should be no-brainers, for instance. > --000000000000e4b72805af363f30 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le dim. 13 sept. 2020 =C3=A0 16:21, Eli Zaretskii <= eliz@gnu.org> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> From: Thibaut Verron <t= hibaut.verron@gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 07:51:53 +0200
> Cc: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-dev= el@gnu.org, ams@gnu.org,
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, ghe@sdf.org, tecosaur@gmail.com
>
>=C2=A0 > The menu we have in C-mouse-3 does not show the most basic = options like copy, paste, and so on
>=C2=A0 to
>=C2=A0 > access them fast.
>
>=C2=A0 Why should it?=C2=A0 We show the menu for the current major mode= , which is
>=C2=A0 IMO more useful than basic editing.
>
> Is it? What feature of your major mode do you use more often than copy= /paste?

Typing characters, of course.=C2=A0 I hope you will not suggest that we
should have a menu item for inserting a character.

Of course not, the keyboa= rd shortcut for character insertion is not surprising. But basic operations= which are not insertion? Copy/cut/paste, undo/redo, maybe search/-and-repl= ace... All those are very common operations, none depend on the major mode,= and all require to either learn an unusual keyboard shortcut, use the tool= bar, or navigate the menu-bar.=C2=A0


My point is that frequency of operations is not the= only criterion for
what to put on the context menu, not even the main one.=C2=A0 The most
important criterion, IMO, is what are the important operations that
would be otherwise much harder to discover and invoke.

I agree, but I'd = say that ease of invokation should take priority over ease of discoverabili= ty. The menu bar offers just as much discoverability, but the ease of use i= s greatly decreased there.=C2=A0

I have only one data point at hand, but I happen to have helped a= new user set up an emacs environment recently. They were happy with findin= g options in the menu bar, and (a selective list of) major mode commands in= the tool bar.=C2=A0

The= major-mode submenus of the menu bar were overwhelming on the other hand, a= nd finding the same menus on the context menu was not much help.

Not finding common operations such= as copy and paste in the context menu was more disconcerting (and directly= led them to discovering and activating CUA).=C2=A0
=
Ditto when their spell-check (again, activated = without my help via the menu) flagged some words and they didn't find t= he corrections in the context menu.=C2=A0

=

We decided that the menu for the current major= mode is a very good
approximation to what the user would like to have at his/her
fingertips.=C2=A0

Was it perhaps at the same time as it was decided that this me= nu should require a modifier key in the default bindings? ;)=C2=A0

The context menu in emacs is und= erused to say the least, and I'd blame that on both the hidden binding = and the redundant contents.=C2=A0

Sadly, by the point users know enough to know how to address/repo= rt the poor condition of the context menu, they simply don't care anymo= re because they can get everything done with keyboard shortcuts and menu/to= ol bar.=C2=A0

The= re's probably some space for improving that, but I
think the basic principle that the context menu should depend heavily
on the major mode is valid and should be preserved.
<= /div>

I believe that it should= depend on the context in a wide sense. That includes the major mode, but a= lso the minor modes, the thing at point, whether the region is active, etc.= =C2=A0

Copy-cut-paste an= d auto-correct suggestions should be no-brainers, for instance.=C2=A0
=
--000000000000e4b72805af363f30--