From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Context menus and mouse-3 [was: Changes for emacs 28] Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:03:19 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20200914061111.3trmuzhdvv7nwdcc@Ergus> <20200914064825.b6f4mgythzqdav4a@Ergus> <20200914074902.GB13929@tuxteam.de> <20200914082912.GD13929@tuxteam.de> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f68b8a05af424e74" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32554"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel To: tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 14 11:04:07 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHkP9-0008Lm-G1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 11:04:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35578 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHkP8-0007p6-JA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 05:04:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44776) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHkOc-0007J5-GD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 05:03:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr1-x441.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::441]:44711) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHkOa-00076K-HD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 05:03:34 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr1-x441.google.com with SMTP id s12so17784871wrw.11 for ; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 02:03:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=32pJhzUMmhSSKB+WmAsJ8h+CMDVAWfmsvJ8qSAWx504=; b=lImR/auL2gA5r+CKLKJwr3tU5UKCPYNZzIkD8BZAvWpd/xMVGcAeV3qouC6FP7Ohl+ CfL2KmP0PUM4RtMv/zT1Trl6VKb4ayiNsKA5VvNs7oP0MhSwLXPpFL2TKaIwu7HZm90d B1+wUopLo/h3VbsOQua9Wrvu9UtbiDsqkBcjB1vNoop8ELdtN0DxoWfkXNkyw5v1O619 FJK4LXHAbas/ekGFxjqPVlwrPlzZ6dHGGgwWjVDInsTUJ7bGyMVFSFwjayHUJ4yDBpKZ vxWPy64L2+xnV/f8B8z6ECNh/fVxDp8+zKMiKS0x83/sKm1WfkwPuNk1ehXrJUg6WUEV boHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=32pJhzUMmhSSKB+WmAsJ8h+CMDVAWfmsvJ8qSAWx504=; b=QjcPnj/hX0ZE5LWxm/QmBvvBfT401+8CwTSD8HW5ZwuxuekF6mCMwMQJXqKR9avzKX +R6xJ2PDbaXI7Skdr8FeO9dH/N8pK5rjG4Syx9lD7g3jcYRRQ8BWexlo5qLs4C/fzCM0 iyQqaT9KXzep2VID9s5d7hzigkpoZeHxuA58enpsGHU1RX2Bl9zbMFPry76jIS0JkELZ kkJ6SpVIMvmTNwFGHSpgNihou8r6lKpU4LDZHSSscmEMhc7+NMaMxzuwhvbAXU3rCL+I W/TqWF4tZWzTv/zWPsJbCap+Wm3/lT3aexfovzIKzjV5YsuWtBA0a22534mgZTphwx2+ 5gfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Y2Ylm0OwTbmeF/uUmduWCcIRaWkYnbwhjWOmoDebjcj1iYO6T EGjycq18HrprYMKyzTwAzyK/MpHEs3rdkcVfhnSh2fAsJPQdPQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJypnrSC6rwAdiDFhDjcznthXrcm1em+abCUPivGGibfiN3eF2nJp70L9qydltssBfZJjUektsKm6rqD59ihf/Y= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f3cd:: with SMTP id g13mr14807359wrp.298.1600074211035; Mon, 14 Sep 2020 02:03:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200914082912.GD13929@tuxteam.de> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::441; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-wr1-x441.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255623 Archived-At: --000000000000f68b8a05af424e74 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le lun. 14 sept. 2020 =C3=A0 10:29, a =C3=A9crit : > On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 09:58:12AM +0200, Thibaut Verron wrote: > > Le lun. 14 sept. 2020 =C3=A0 09:49, a =C3=A9crit : > > [...] > > > > FWIW, it's what I'd expect. Click, slide up/down along the menu, > > > release. > > > > > > > I never realized that most applications also support this way of using > the > > context menu. > > UI is like a labyrinth full of differently trained rats inside ;-) > Agreed. That might be why most GUI applications transparently support both ways of operating the context menu. Given that their labyrinth/UI designers had more time, means and motivation to investigate mouse behaviors than we do, taking the same direction could be a good first step. > > > I find that hold-and-slide moves are annoying to do reliably with a > laptop > > touch-pad, though. > > I haven't a touchpad currently (wrong: there is one, but I vastly > prefer to use the trackpoint). Some years ago I /had/ to use a > touchpad (bigcorps: the bosses know what you need better than > yourself!), but somehow I managed: click+hold was (one quick tap+ > release, tap+stay and then move). This was pretty reliable. > I might have had bad luck or small palms, but I could never get complex tap combos to work reliably with palm detection. At least I'm thankful that I never had to use one of those touchpads without click buttons... > Of course those things are so extremely variable (all the possible > combos of personal motoric predispositions, touchpad hardware and > firm/software, etc.) that you can't make a general rule. > Agreed. Again, I believe that it supports the idea of supporting both usages. > When asserting things about UI "this-and-this is better", take > into account that you are biased by your prior experience. Give > other people a way to opt out of your utopia, which might well > be their distopia :-) > Is that meant for me personally? Sorry if I came across as assertive, it was really the opposite of my intention. I try to make it clear when my statements represent only my opinion and my experience. Sorry if I failed to convey that meaning at times, I will try harder. Best, Thibaut --000000000000f68b8a05af424e74 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Le=C2=A0lun. 14 sept. 2020 =C3=A0=C2=A010= :29, <tomas@tuxteam.de> a =C3= =A9crit=C2=A0:
On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 09:58:12AM +0200, Thibaut= Verron wrote:
> Le lun. 14 sept. 2020 =C3=A0 09:49, <tomas@tuxteam.de> a =C3=A9crit :

[...]

> > FWIW, it's what I'd expect. Click, slide up/down along th= e menu,
> > release.
> >
>
> I never realized that most applications also support this way of using= the
> context menu.

UI is like a labyrinth full of differently trained rats inside ;-)

Agreed.=C2=A0

That mig= ht be why most GUI applications transparently support both ways of operatin= g the context menu. Given that their=C2=A0labyrinth/UI designers had more t= ime, means and motivation to investigate mouse behaviors than we do, taking= the same direction could be a good=C2=A0first step.
=C2=A0
=

> I find that hold-and-slide moves are annoying to do reliably with a la= ptop
> touch-pad, though.

I haven't a touchpad currently (wrong: there is one, but I vastly
prefer to use the trackpoint). Some years ago I /had/ to use a
touchpad (bigcorps: the bosses know what you need better than
yourself!), but somehow I managed: click+hold was (one quick tap+
release, tap+stay and then move). This was pretty reliable.

I might have had bad luck or small palms, but I could = never get complex tap combos to work reliably with palm detection.

At least I'm thankful that I never had to use one of t= hose touchpads without click buttons...
=C2=A0
Of course those things are so extr= emely variable (all the possible
combos of personal motoric predispositions, touchpad hardware and
firm/software, etc.) that you can't make a general rule.

Agreed. Again, I believe that it supports the idea of= supporting both usages.
=C2=A0
When asserting things about UI "this-and-this is= better", take
into account that you are biased by your prior experience. Give
other people a way to opt out of your utopia, which might well
be their distopia :-)

Is that meant for= me personally? Sorry if I came across as assertive, it was really the oppo= site of my intention.=C2=A0

I try to make it clear= when my statements represent only my opinion and my experience. Sorry if I= failed to convey that meaning at=C2=A0times, I will try harder.
=
Best,
Thibaut
--000000000000f68b8a05af424e74--