From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:53:22 +0200 Message-ID: References: <4a1188f8-9864-54c0-ae6f-5f32102d9757@gmx.com> <20201011073553.GA6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201011120840.GC2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201011125031.GC6784@odonien.localdomain> <20201012050418.GZ2923@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201013052736.GE31408@protected.rcdrun.com> <20201016130235.06218dae@argon> <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="33463"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Richard Stallman , Jean Louis , emacs-devel To: Marcel Ventosa Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Oct 16 09:54:37 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKZQ-0008Yg-QB for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:54:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34866 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKZP-0004Pa-Qt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:54:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44756) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKYU-0003Wp-30 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:53:38 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb35.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35]:34548) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kTKYS-0005ui-2n; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 03:53:37 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb35.google.com with SMTP id o70so1215171ybc.1; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 00:53:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9PugJoCoA3TQRP8HlcYLijQ5gx/LhEgfceWk0Qoz+8E=; b=SFVa39QMjj5EtdEMVhSNADG2uZ4NIQVnFeMJkcJopXYXd9PFx3uVlgF4xgqvYiCO/3 ubCuTBLKxgpgV2/ej7bQJzRXur75ayumkM/qsoSPWr79yV1Uv6JEux2WCfS8x+OYjeX9 oSPadQ+gWAOpqVRAJutLLniWgpuiGET95ExGuPUjS+smBa5aGXYCdLy4SVyLlHMsigHb aQGfiLY3zlpP6cuZjskkNiplNpez3UksemZYFMv2+UGaDEid0+Ej55U+hsX8wZy/vt6K SwmcsXY61HCgS8nwjC0uTg/Zu/0pYrANtuPzS7cftv8+dA51fx9wpP/l3/hRcMqcKXD4 QEFA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9PugJoCoA3TQRP8HlcYLijQ5gx/LhEgfceWk0Qoz+8E=; b=VF+LT9Mf6q8VMHCgfNkA1dhfjw4uaPyXyc4buHJnAimCridR6MrvT/9D13c6vsfRaT tkRFZmHXm7TTc3bmU7ZHtgRf7hOXflRhZqH8q58N4VPtJIhiyX05C8IblokmdmCC4iNv mnse8IlqanNIIp5TraojvZQ+9Sy0JbVBpw4flzIK9VCRNFSBkg4nia17MVHH6Z9jEop6 AxXD+Q6z+F6cSqAwjhXuDR0yR/aeQchr8ibI2D4CN+Ak6UrE8eeL4t5bknJvdQKsj+bu 4Xirvqk1ficA+fwM18P2KtE1JxTmF60xBrUZ5kY3iylk3nKbRjySD/3hicehvXprPxLb TMSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530bcwTF1LfUSfvdPJUZps1C0bTjnoSjxEJP4cNP9RBb2HGJuX74 fsgEZL5q+598WKUTrCsv5/4Tc2Uoy2iF4l5di6s= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmN3OuBf6H4CYgMbEwFGJ9JbYo1N1TGZmjKilwyF64SlljL4uDThD/WoyWcbASmxfzCjzu39xHaliDt5AT+2M= X-Received: by 2002:a25:bcc9:: with SMTP id l9mr3178026ybm.183.1602834813900; Fri, 16 Oct 2020 00:53:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b35; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb35.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:257786 Archived-At: Le ven. 16 oct. 2020 =C3=A0 09:24, Marcel Ventosa a =C3= =A9crit : > > On Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:52:49 +0200 > Thibaut Verron wrote: > > > Le ven. 16 oct. 2020 =C3=A0 08:03, Marcel Ventosa a > > =C3=A9crit : > > > > > > On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 23:59:07 -0400 > > > Richard Stallman wrote: > > > > > > > I hope that only a minority of Emacs users know about MELPA, and > > > > I'd rather not inform the rest about it. But if something is > > > > going to inform them anyway, it is better to do it with a > > > > denunciation. > > > > > > > > > I've been using Emacs (and MELPA) for the best part of a decade and > > > knew nothing about this! I'm concerned to use only free software and > > > actively avoid proprietary software, so this is a bit of a shock. > > > > As I understand it, Melpa packages cannot *be* or *install* non-free > > software. But some will not work without such software, which can in > > theory encourage users to install it. > > > > So unless you yourself installed non-free software, Melpa cannot have > > made your Emacs configuration non-free by accident. > > I understand, thanks for the explanation. In that case, I think I'm > well informed enough to have avoived the dangers. I wonder how many > people are not. I personally don't think many users install non-free software because they saw it wrapped in a Melpa package. Taking the example of emacs-lastpass given above, I don't see how anyone would even find this package without searching for it with the keyword "lastpass". The audience, rather, is users who are currently using Lastpass in their browsers but are interested in bringing some of their online activities to Emacs, but rely on their password manager to do so. In due time, with the new "taste of freedom", they might even switch to Keepass or Bitwarden (note: I don't use a password manager in Emacs, so I have no idea of the quality of each support package, beyond their existence), but in any case, I believe that for those users, the existence of transitional solutions is a good thing. I absolutely support the fact that Melpa is not activated by default, and that there should be a warning about the existence of those packages everywhere possible. But I still consider that the value of those packages outweigh their dangers, just like the win32 build of Emacs. > > ELPA means Emacs Lisp Package Archive, so both Melpa and GNU Elpa are > > ELPA's. I think that commonly referring to GNU Elpa as simply Elpa > > (which I am also guilty of) is a bigger source of confusion than > > Melpa and GNU Elpa sharing the same suffix. > > As written on the MELPA Github about page: > > "MELPA is Milkypostman's ELPA or Milkypostman's Experimental Lisp > Package Archive if you're not into the whole brevity thing." > > Perhaps the shared `E' in `Elpa' is purely coincidental? I didn't know about the Experimental version, thanks. If anything, the quoted sentence is self-contradicting for me. Also, the title of the melpa.org page is "MELPA (Milkypostman=E2=80=99s Ema= cs Lisp Package Archive)". In any case, I don't know if an acronym with a different vowel but still ending with LPA, such as Milpa, would be less confusing.