From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Thibaut Verron Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Proposal for an Emacs User Survey Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 10:36:53 +0200 Message-ID: References: <20201016142436.187b8210@argon> <20201016152523.6fdfef65@argon> <6142a27f-c53b-35bf-1038-5f047395e868@yandex.ru> <20201016204531.77fab05b@argon> <725aa7c4-321f-4483-5a21-a148ff7f119b@yandex.ru> <20201016213312.603595fe@argon> <20201017054446.GW11061@protected.rcdrun.com> Reply-To: thibaut.verron@gmail.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12384"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Marcel Ventosa , emacs-devel , Jean Louis , Dmitry Gutov To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 18 10:38:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kU4Cq-00037x-Tn for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 10:38:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35482 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kU4Cp-0000qp-TJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:38:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:51810) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kU4Bj-0008Oy-7p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:37:12 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d]:33061) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kU4Bg-0006vD-50; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:37:10 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com with SMTP id c3so6190089ybl.0; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:37:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=FkXXkk/KSDCpVxdlRSnjDGBjeh7IB+kqfbz0Te84vE0=; b=gH0dDqzM6Dozdd8/17KkS2kpKt5rhLSZqDj1QjYSveRWE9yLbBOB0l0aelQ48xceDG 3VL9cB1C41nwSRHD2xuPpJYoxQUUvpG6PCc24W6N/fhGtyIeYNDuCfOPxM6g1fI3G7b4 OFCdkPfTL1+INAA8bEffjPEVlRuoxAgGWAGS1/2foQ6cnlUNwbyupvYGUgTqciUfbq5E cGvKrFt4uRM49CGFkAORR6MPLYiGb/lJ8jDqzmYuWUF84jcAJVLhUR5nULw9aSTtmKph WYLnx5rRoZDR2om1JIx2vn6OEc5RevflO1u8D6uxEMZTK7mnkHQda/hZU0jZp/k4319G KYLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:reply-to :from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FkXXkk/KSDCpVxdlRSnjDGBjeh7IB+kqfbz0Te84vE0=; b=o0CjVgQZxiTn49mbb15NLrdqNm+1QdmH+4aX2QXCjDmFDiXdq1czfRSSo3PZqlc+wv rwhqp1HT4K91zajryqlNKUEEjltgQXYGU6vSU1GPc1HCdXn3VxiPV0szj5+AWOnCqIJV BvY1JOSy/4xSPOoNZ1Vb7CVfQzjDVJ0p/gYKxdBAXwuXt75Ep4o7agkf2fwVf1KxxyxR SEQNANZ3flC9Rv/e7isbJrMmmOQ/ZH2QOPK7Wim/bSV7N6GRNFYr+tUQwyMW9IwDdjuc XEcy4LMyHPe1iP6NFhjNQLXTzkFcXsYrwKRC+nz5mLtl7dKAvZF6jqsvc+k18AeDfUGl ubiQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532X2X+SZNyfNAeltTx5Tiyx/54BvtzoZPEHVcm9kQCIJZUrnKsr a21r8M7GTb9IzJbwV3QUxqizE2aJ2jJzonmQvBvez9JL X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwMMYNDDLT6oeGOIB8yF9QVfJ67X8BXf4HNNJ+IBY8Rls6TGMHm4s98uWqNbCozhPFR2QErcS5f8/KoQXgae0s= X-Received: by 2002:a25:4e46:: with SMTP id c67mr13695792ybb.87.1603010224681; Sun, 18 Oct 2020 01:37:04 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2d; envelope-from=thibaut.verron@gmail.com; helo=mail-yb1-xb2d.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258011 Archived-At: > > Surely you don't want to convince them to use an inferior product just > > for purity of software? > > Are you defining "superior" and "inferior" based on practical > considerations only? Most people think that way; business and the > media inculcate that way of thinking. > > However, the GNU Project follows the values of the free software > movement, which hold that most important characteristic of a program > is whether it respects the user's freedom or tramples it. If you > value your freedom strongly, you will consider any free program better > than any nonfree program. > > Based on these values, switching to a free program is always a step > up. > > The people who use lastpass are probably not supporters of the free > software movement. Probably they think that lastpass is better than > no program at all. They might thing that lastpass is superior to some > free programs. > > If we want to persuade them of something, we need to argue based on > premises they agree with. We may need to make arguments that can > persuade even a person who thinks that a nonfree program is a good > thing. I agree with all of that. But I'm an idealist: I think if the software is free and has as many or more functionalities (e.g. MS office vs Libreoffice, Sublime Text vs Emacs), the argument should convince everybody, no matter how much they care about freedom. As an aside, English is obviously not my native language, but in French, there is a subtle difference being persuade (persuader) and convince (convaincre): the latter appeals to reason and facts, the former to emotions. I don't know if the same difference exists in English, but if it does, I think that what we want is to convince people to use free software. > But we must be careful not to endorse the idea that a nonfree program > is a good thing. I don't think that I said that. But a feature available in a non-free program can be a good feature which we might want to add to free programs (assuming that it is possible without compromising on freedom, of course).