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From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdarcus@gmail.com>
To: Vikas Rawal <vikasrawal@gmail.com>
Cc: org-mode mailing list <emacs-orgmode@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0
Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2022 09:32:46 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAF-FPGPGFUQ58KKOwV_KbdC-nemxi3eQ6Jm-Az=FH9LGtxgRxQ@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALtzAB2BHULDOXaamUZFQh2H453Ekb6K7bkOHbU-dHPn98avwg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 20, 2022 at 8:09 AM Vikas Rawal <vikasrawal@gmail.com> wrote:

> What is the general view of the community about this? Is there a comprehensive discussion of pros and cons of each?

Not really, but there's John's summary here:

https://github.com/jkitchin/org-ref#what-about-org-cite

The high-level discussion at the beginning, including the enumerated
points, seems right to me.

The following point that "org-cite does not meet my citation and
technical document publishing needs, and it was not possible to
integrate it into org-ref without compromising those" is more subject
to debate, particularly the first clause.

I don't see any practical advantage to the org-ref syntax and model,
unless you include cross-references and such.

But that's because I just don't think cross-references and indexes
should be handled in org-cite; I think if we need improvements in
existing cross-references etc support, we should add those there.

I suspect he's also meaning the different ways that citation
commands/styles are handled in the two systems.

Here's an example from org-ref 3:

[[citealp:See &kitchin-2015-examp page 2]]

Note that first piece: "citealp". That's the command, which org-ref
will output directly to LaTeX/Natbib as \citealp. Note that command
only makes sense for natbib.

Org-cite has a different abstraction here: the style/substyle system.
So the above would be ...

[cite/bare:See @kitchin-2015-examp page 2]

... and then whatever export processor would map that "bare" style to
the appropriate output.

So that leaves the last bit; the "not possible" point, which I can't
address. It would obviously be nice if org-ref supported org-cite in
the future.

> What is everyone doing? I was an org-ref user for long before I switched to org-cite. I can now shift to citar but since I am an ivy user, the switch is not trivial. Also, I like many helper functions that John has created, and would have to miss those if I do not use org-ref/org-ref-cite.

A month or so ago, John offered to turn over maintenance of
org-ref-cite to someone else, which might be one good option for
someone who uses ivy, in particular, and interested in developing it
further.

More generally, the modular design of org-cite should result, in time,
with diverse components, including for different completion
frameworks. For example, I think it'd be pretty easy to create an
insert process for helm-bibtex or ivy-bibtex, and a follow processor
for bibtex-completion.

Or alternatively, as citar now no longer requires bibtex-completion,
someone could write a small citar front-end for ivy as an insert
processor.

The whole point of the org-ctite design is it should be easy for users
to mix-and-match different pieces, and for documents to remain
compatible across users and export backends. It also allows developers
to focus on those small components.

Bruce


  parent reply	other threads:[~2022-03-20 13:33 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 73+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2022-03-20 12:08 citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 Vikas Rawal
2022-03-20 13:19 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-20 14:08   ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-20 14:38     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21  0:31   ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21  1:39     ` Timothy
2022-03-21  8:16       ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 11:51         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 12:34           ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 12:52             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 13:05               ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 13:24                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 21:27                 ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-23 21:53                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 22:04                     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-23 22:47                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-24 10:04                         ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-21 12:19       ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 12:42         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 14:06           ` John Kitchin
2022-04-19 22:37             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21  3:27     ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-21 11:51       ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 17:20         ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-25 15:53         ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-27 15:33           ` John Kitchin
2022-03-27 15:44             ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-25 17:10         ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-26 12:41           ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-27 19:40           ` John Kitchin
2022-03-28 12:34             ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-28 13:16               ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-29 15:22                 ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-29 16:14                   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-30 13:50                     ` Denis Maier
2022-03-31 15:10                     ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-31 17:27                       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-04-02 11:41                         ` org-cite, CSL styles and space before citation Max Nikulin
2022-03-30 21:43                   ` citations: org-cite vs org-ref 3.0 John Kitchin
2022-03-21 12:59     ` juh
2022-03-22 13:03       ` indieterminacy
2022-03-23 21:06     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-27 17:00       ` John Kitchin
2022-03-27 23:17         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 14:40   ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-21 15:19     ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-21 17:00       ` John Kitchin
2022-03-25 15:21         ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-22 14:41       ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-22 17:20         ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 12:44           ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-23 14:39             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-23 15:26               ` Eric S Fraga
2022-03-23 17:17               ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-23 22:50                 ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-26 19:08               ` M. Pger
2022-03-22 23:52     ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-23 16:30       ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-23 23:04         ` Nicolas Goaziou
2022-03-25 16:30           ` Max Nikulin
2022-03-27 15:38           ` John Kitchin
2022-03-27 23:18             ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 13:32 ` Bruce D'Arcus [this message]
2022-03-20 13:42 ` Ihor Radchenko
2022-03-20 18:12   ` Thomas S. Dye
2022-03-20 20:13     ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-20 20:30       ` Vikas Rawal
2022-03-20 20:34       ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 22:10         ` Dominik Schrempf
2022-03-20 19:44   ` Bruce D'Arcus
2022-03-20 21:14     ` chris
2022-03-21 14:21       ` John Kitchin
2022-03-21 14:10     ` John Kitchin

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