From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Alan E. Davis" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: Where is Emacs Lisp taught ? Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 00:04:52 -0700 Message-ID: References: <5B8BFDC9-A07B-48FE-8C97-1BB0B84E5577@gmail.com> <53705d26-8a69-4453-aed9-ab72a0cd139e@googlegroups.com> <87woq2ewza.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> <668D7901-5829-436B-ABE5-4FEE09D73136@gmail.com> <87muqydbxj.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1540710240 16584 195.159.176.226 (28 Oct 2018 07:04:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2018 07:04:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: "help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org" , brandelune@gmail.com To: galex-713@galex-713.eu Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 28 08:03:55 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gGf74-0004Db-GB for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 08:03:54 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39013 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gGf9A-0006jU-Tz for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 03:06:04 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56139) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gGf8Y-0006jO-FP for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 03:05:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gGf8W-0004Kl-QM for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 03:05:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x42b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b]:39089) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gGf8U-0004II-VN for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 03:05:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id c25-v6so2476722pfe.6 for ; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 00:05:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=X1aHt44+NuMCNDrTWmALwDrEP29MYDawOEl+awTCNZs=; b=fChQ4JNHk0gvasH9mqDX+Gdnh4R3dtu9RmEfM6Px7IULKQoiV+/0AFlMcAbwkab2WJ MLROVGYkuweT6aJ88oDKctU2fip3k35utKefLyjby47ixyfR4saHbJ8c+WrHjQ3/UB8U SNxeY3CoV34ec0baHKd42+1pzYpDBfokxUQB9Y74G38zlnYIpDk7A8FYdQ/2hutqkf4j OKIjqeiszPKsz3DbU3MaJ3Rh3orneRpykgaUhFYpB2CiaZtAl6AoqCG3i/GgxJOyDihA n9mJs27Cx+MAR378IFYkMXGnFQDDW/DH3KNdGinsAIKXsUYyA5JUDxbW0mjPDKfAGeFx 4nvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=X1aHt44+NuMCNDrTWmALwDrEP29MYDawOEl+awTCNZs=; b=R6OanZ97Rjzqqq30VC9hdrCqL8+gkCYVcLJizgbFDkstLe0npF6TBA5VhLAYRhg2KP geFffHI9OpFbkV1PcSgpSRXJqGUAvbclr6HSWfCcEnicAE+C/aHc6H320LflV0oR+bbX eGeLRoHNeyVSzjPxeBhpnA6FB2FM2NooqIGv/Jd4kp9UHLvC2vrnCTV87XpPwlayTgCL CH4K1NSWU3hNXV6RdE6eVijnGqzT+615z89KP8j3Zy2daYMIEZHCee5YVE7P4uhhD7RT ypLxRPWE7kSuiOP32fW06S5K2r3rj73VQTdIv+Q/kCJORXGUYNH7A+z+rxy7Kl2daYQs 3r2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gI9u3FXxaDn9K4eWijYR3krsYDmL52tecRiGSgZn/13OA9utsv4 c/5v0Y1pQ4xe3WhLic4QxYZkfIcw5TslP9Rb8lo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dIvIbh7k8hpw9eNkrRBvHxHrmfLaC3oASvYkNmdX4L9hXk58T1fo6s42+J32EKua4b/OyMDyCUKNvpNRwOUPg= X-Received: by 2002:a62:60c1:: with SMTP id u184-v6mr10296471pfb.114.1540710319360; Sun, 28 Oct 2018 00:05:19 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87muqydbxj.fsf@portable.galex-713.eu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::42b X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.21 X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.help:118464 Archived-At: First, I am not a programmer. I have a different perspective. I see Elisp as an integral component of Emacs---the Extensible Self Documenting Editor. That is the very core of it. This is sets itself apart from any other editor. I will never be an expert at lisp, but I can extend Emacs while refering to documentation of the editor and Elisp, all at my fingertips. It is a stroke of brilliance, just one of the reasons I am grateful for the work of Richard Stallman. Emacs fell into my hands unexpectedly, just when I seriously needed a tool for my project developing a lexicon of animal names in a Pacific language complex. I was looking for an editor that I could make a simple macro to type letters with diacritical marks. Multi-Edit seems to me to work just fine. It was all I had, provided to me by a lingust. The trial version was "free", in dollars and cents terms; yet it was a form of cripple ware: to get the full use of it would require a manual, which would cost 350.00, an impossible sum for me. Emacs came with an amazing manual. I had seen the very name of the Free Software Foundation, and, not knowing anything about it's purpose or cause, I wrote to request some free software. I lived on an isolated island, so it took some time before I received a package with 13 3-1/2" disks, with a port of Emacs to Windows 3, called Demacs, and a suite of unix utilities ported to Windows 3 by Cygnus, if I recall correctly. This was in about 1992. Unix tools were perfect for my intended project of "digitizing" a growing body or data on animal names. Sort and string manipulation utilities were most welcome. So I had a toolkit of unimaginable utility, perfectly suited to my need. Elisp was part and parcel of it all. I had some limited familiarity with computers, so I was able to work my way though the documentation---all of it included as part of Emacs, and available just when one needed it. This is another part of the brilliant scheme that is Emacs: the TexInfo documentation could not be easier to use. I haven't told this story often enough, but it is beside the point. The point is the Elisp is integrated with the editor, making it quite unique in my experience. It can be learned independently, absent any course, though I admit I have struggled to learn the little that I have, and to do complicated things I needed help. I would think that a course in Elsip would be extremely interesting. First, one needs to find a young person whose interests align well with the tool. Enough said. Too much. Alan Davis On Sat, Oct 27, 2018 at 7:49 PM Garreau, Alexandre wrote: > On 2018-10-28 at 10:16, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > >> On Oct 28, 2018, at 9:27, Garreau, Alexandre > wrote: > >> > >> On 2018-10-27 at 09:54, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > >>> Gene, > >>> > >>> Thank you for this remark. I totally agree with you. elisp should be > >>> considered a domain specific language and not be compared to general > >>> purpose languages in general. > >> > >> emacs lisp *can* and *is* used as a general purpose language. > > > > If you consider Emacs as a virtual lisp machine, yes. If you consider > > Emacs as a text editor, much less so. > > > > Teaching elisp as strictly a lisp dialect, removes it from its utility > > as being Emacs extension language. > > I don=E2=80=99t consider emacs as a text editor but rather a shell, a UI,= a > environment, system. And emacs-lisp is the main (currently only) > language to program using this amazing UI, system, environment, shell, > etc.. > > Just as if you take lisp machine lisp, and remove the lisp machine, the > kernel, all I/O, etc. you removes its utility as lisp machine extension > language. > > --=20 [Fill in the blanks] The use of corrupt manipulations and blatant rhetorical ploys ...--- outright lying, flagwaving, personal attacks, setting up phony alternatives, misdirection, jargon-mongering, evading key issues, feigning disinterested objectivity, willful misunderstanding of other points of view---suggests that ... lacks both credibility and evidence. ---- Edward Tufte (in context of making presentations)