From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Williams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#28790: [PATCH] Replaced "which see" with "q.v.". Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2017 18:03:31 -0700 Message-ID: References: <838tggoo8m.fsf@gnu.org> <87po9pi7p4.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1508029765 22131 195.159.176.226 (15 Oct 2017 01:09:25 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 01:09:25 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 28790@debbugs.gnu.org To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Oct 15 03:09:18 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XQb-0004AT-KV for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 15 Oct 2017 03:09:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55692 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XQe-0002UW-2j for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:09:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:55850) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XLZ-00074w-LA for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:04:06 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XLW-0000xo-HY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:04:05 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:60322) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XLW-0000wt-EZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:04:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XLW-0005Oh-67 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:04:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: John Williams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2017 01:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 28790 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 28790-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B28790.150802943920737 (code B ref 28790); Sun, 15 Oct 2017 01:04:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 28790) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Oct 2017 01:03:59 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40770 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XLS-0005OO-PQ for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:03:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wr0-f180.google.com ([209.85.128.180]:57223) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1e3XLR-0005O9-GX for 28790@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 21:03:57 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-wr0-f180.google.com with SMTP id r79so3189042wrb.13 for <28790@debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 18:03:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oM4N2+qO6hUIl+Lc0UOwRw3STfiQj+VfOclZA47bz6U=; b=H5r5qyLLOwB0Tkh4X2yTxnoPGZ5/acDI9Xu+nY/LSMW4x7XdxUYR8QOTlsOV2y0lhS 2E32rYNyOZn1HA5Nu/+SM/m+kyaajZNYsx2ansaevhB7BgVTjxbSCuqn0fizK7HNsU57 P2gPGsY8Q0aIElATdMd9S+GzDIQP1jamVcFv0OHy0QXEqCwBMvMx++zZiRehsQ68ihVY OEGe3C2x9Pn9SNFDYT9QAlCxylR7cik3w5hJFGGiEXwgg9/0Jw2BpQUzm48zoxNpcYqN LzDzyqVpnyiaJP3ugKh95S5ISd9lrnxu0uJK3w5JhSFhIh2ujoUhq67pnAypOUiJqdFH /BHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=oM4N2+qO6hUIl+Lc0UOwRw3STfiQj+VfOclZA47bz6U=; b=TS8vPGsZkDNrVXR0iwTmPSk2oyGVuzhaithBXCgPh7VU7pecDOrKJRC66l4t33JQqj gVzNR33JT2IIgoT4+jtRbidjRDoQBq7xPANJBMgFeA6XKq+7ziY41ojouLNmPW06ETc8 52ak60/xQvtGqtDLxgSp9jA8hr4gKkII0b3EWST9+q6t+R9OYOZeNnLCetyMXiU1K3vZ pRjAW1inYaIZig1s9Xj8sBh8bJEohM/UCNCZK0mkpsd5nz9YYa+fQ8nwTc/Y+b6DxfXV Llzni2NnDtS9Ws50dBqQq5qxymZAJMYe43VlUAQ9YpJfCpYVC8++VsYzdEN80ZsOQqjy K8pA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXXdLzujXHMkheVMC2Ci3plCpgSGQ9yVJRLxO1to9+BeGxZmrdY MyrL+qhSolrkV4i/3Sj0qXORWkFyr2x1uNafolk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AOwi7QDVsWkappSNVF2/hqjKBprR9ZLJ5YTcjXKyW/p+519HTn8M4NO7RWc6HW82MwflY5umOMXC2hiYvnJiICf5POw= X-Received: by 10.223.166.181 with SMTP id t50mr4554899wrc.251.1508029431740; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 18:03:51 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.28.111.93 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Oct 2017 18:03:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87po9pi7p4.fsf@gmail.com> X-Google-Sender-Auth: MSKApprwI9t641BwswjVO4blvNM X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:138433 Archived-At: To replace "which see" with something more conventional, I think you'd have to re-word the whole sentence in most cases. So like, "See also cromulate-frobnicator, which is called by snarf-spavicle in GUI environments", as opposed to something like "In GUI environments, snarf-spavicle calls cromulate-frobnicator, which see." At the moment I can't think of any any natural-sounding way to introduce a cross reference in English prose that isn't some type of imperative verb phrase. Tangent: "which see" fails to parse for me because it sounds like "cromulate-frobnicator" is supposed to be the subject of "see" rather than the object. The only time I'd expect to see "which see" would be as a modifier to a noun phrase like "the cameras, which see everything that happens". I suspect you could get away with something like "quod vide" because Latin is a lot more flexible about word order, and English-speaking authors just blindly copied the Latin phrase without accounting for the rather large grammatical differences between English and Latin. It wouldn't be the first time English-speaking academics tried to apply Latin rules to English grammar in a totally silly way, like when they invented the concept of a split infinitive, or when they started insisting you can't end a sentence with a preposition. I still maintain that "which see" is an anachronism that the vast majority of English speakers will find meaningless at best, and confusing at worst, but since RMS already said he disagrees, I don't see much point in pressing the issue further without collecting some hard data on English usage, and that seems like it would be an excessively quixotic pursuit. On Sat, Oct 14, 2017 at 5:19 PM, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > Glenn Morris writes: > >> Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> >>> The absolute majority of your proposed changes are in the doc strings, >>> where we already have a direct link to the documentation of a symbol >>> whose name precedes "which see". So whether the reader understands >>> that or doesn't, the link is already there to click on, and no harm is >>> done by a relatively rare use of this phrase. >> >> IMO there is no benefit either, as you explain above. "which see" is an >> anachronism in the age of hyperlinks. > > For me, it has the benefit that it allows me emphasize that the > hyperlink preceding is more important than usual, almost a pre-requisite > for understanding the current one. I use "which see" because it's terse > and a conventional phrase. Until this discussion I thought it was a > widely accepted convention, even outside Emacs, I now understand that it > is not, but if you "forbid it" I have to start writing things like "(the > documentation of which is required/suggested to fully understand this > item)" which says the same but is a bit long-winded. > > Jo=C3=A3o