Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Stefan Kangas]

eliz@gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) writes:

> diff --git a/lisp/help-macro.el b/lisp/help-macro.el
> index 1fa9d82..b3c7e23 100644
> --- a/lisp/help-macro.el
> +++ b/lisp/help-macro.el
> @@ -165,14 +165,18 @@ and then returns."
>                     (let ((cursor-in-echo-area t)
>                           (overriding-local-map local-map))
>                       (setq key (read-key-sequence
> -                                (format "Type one of the options listed%s: "
> +                                (format "Type one of listed options%s: "

Are we sure that this is an improvement?  I find the old text more natural.

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Colin Baxter 😺]

>>>>> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

    > eliz@gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) writes:
    >> diff --git a/lisp/help-macro.el b/lisp/help-macro.el index
    >> 1fa9d82..b3c7e23 100644 --- a/lisp/help-macro.el +++
    >> b/lisp/help-macro.el @@ -165,14 +165,18 @@ and then returns."
    >> (let ((cursor-in-echo-area t) (overriding-local-map local-map))
    >> (setq key (read-key-sequence - (format "Type one of the options
    >> listed%s: " + (format "Type one of listed options%s: "

    > Are we sure that this is an improvement?  I find the old text more
    > natural.


For me it is an improvement. The help-for-help buffer is taller. My Del
key is the Backspace but that's my detail and will not be universal.

Thanks again.

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Stefan Kangas]

Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

> For me it is an improvement. The help-for-help buffer is taller. My Del
> key is the Backspace but that's my detail and will not be universal.

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing.

I was referring to the specific wording in that one quoted line so I
don't see the relevance of talking about keyboard layouts.  IOW, my
question is not technical but about proper use of the English language.

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Colin Baxter 😺]

>>>>> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

    > Colin Baxter 😺 <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:
    >> For me it is an improvement. The help-for-help buffer is
    >> taller. My Del key is the Backspace but that's my detail and will
    >> not be universal.

    > Maybe we are not talking about the same thing.

    > I was referring to the specific wording in that one quoted line so
    > I don't see the relevance of talking about keyboard layouts.  IOW,
    > my question is not technical but about proper use of the English
    > language.

I was only replying tangentially to you.

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:30:22 -0800
> 
> eliz@gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) writes:
> 
> > diff --git a/lisp/help-macro.el b/lisp/help-macro.el
> > index 1fa9d82..b3c7e23 100644
> > --- a/lisp/help-macro.el
> > +++ b/lisp/help-macro.el
> > @@ -165,14 +165,18 @@ and then returns."
> >                     (let ((cursor-in-echo-area t)
> >                           (overriding-local-map local-map))
> >                       (setq key (read-key-sequence
> > -                                (format "Type one of the options listed%s: "
> > +                                (format "Type one of listed options%s: "
> 
> Are we sure that this is an improvement?  I find the old text more natural.

I didn't change the text to improve it, I changed it to make it
shorter.  Because otherwise, when we echo the keys typed by the user,
they overflow the (default) window width, and that resizes the
mini-window, which causes an unpleasant effect of scrolling the Help
window.

If you can suggest a different solution that avoids the resizing,
please do.

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Stephen Berman]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:09:06 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 03:30:22 -0800
>>
>> eliz@gnu.org (Eli Zaretskii) writes:
>>
>> > diff --git a/lisp/help-macro.el b/lisp/help-macro.el
>> > index 1fa9d82..b3c7e23 100644
>> > --- a/lisp/help-macro.el
>> > +++ b/lisp/help-macro.el
>> > @@ -165,14 +165,18 @@ and then returns."
>> >                     (let ((cursor-in-echo-area t)
>> >                           (overriding-local-map local-map))
>> >                       (setq key (read-key-sequence
>> > -                                (format "Type one of the options listed%s: "
>> > +                                (format "Type one of listed options%s: "
>>
>> Are we sure that this is an improvement?  I find the old text more natural.
>
> I didn't change the text to improve it, I changed it to make it
> shorter.  Because otherwise, when we echo the keys typed by the user,
> they overflow the (default) window width, and that resizes the
> mini-window, which causes an unpleasant effect of scrolling the Help
> window.
>
> If you can suggest a different solution that avoids the resizing,
> please do.

Is this about the *Metahelp* buffer displayed by typing `C-h ?'?  Then I
think it's sufficient to prompt with "Type one of the options%s: ",
since the buffer containing the options is in plain view.

Steve Berman

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@gmx.net>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:01:21 +0100
> 
> > I didn't change the text to improve it, I changed it to make it
> > shorter.  Because otherwise, when we echo the keys typed by the user,
> > they overflow the (default) window width, and that resizes the
> > mini-window, which causes an unpleasant effect of scrolling the Help
> > window.
> >
> > If you can suggest a different solution that avoids the resizing,
> > please do.
> 
> Is this about the *Metahelp* buffer displayed by typing `C-h ?'?  Then I
> think it's sufficient to prompt with "Type one of the options%s: ",
> since the buffer containing the options is in plain view.

Those options go out of view as soon as you scroll.

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Stephen Berman]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 16:28:24 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@gmx.net>
>> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:01:21 +0100
>>
>> > I didn't change the text to improve it, I changed it to make it
>> > shorter.  Because otherwise, when we echo the keys typed by the user,
>> > they overflow the (default) window width, and that resizes the
>> > mini-window, which causes an unpleasant effect of scrolling the Help
>> > window.
>> >
>> > If you can suggest a different solution that avoids the resizing,
>> > please do.
>>
>> Is this about the *Metahelp* buffer displayed by typing `C-h ?'?  Then I
>> think it's sufficient to prompt with "Type one of the options%s: ",
>> since the buffer containing the options is in plain view.
>
> Those options go out of view as soon as you scroll.

I think users know or readily learn that they can scroll back.

Steve Berman

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> If you can suggest a different solution that avoids the resizing,
> please do.

Maybe one of these?

    "Type one of the above keys%s: "
    "Type a key listed above%s: "

Here's the original to make it easier to compare the length:

    "Type one of listed options%s: "

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 06:16:13 -0800
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > If you can suggest a different solution that avoids the resizing,
> > please do.
> 
> Maybe one of these?
> 
>     "Type one of the above keys%s: "
>     "Type a key listed above%s: "
> 
> Here's the original to make it easier to compare the length:
> 
>     "Type one of listed options%s: "

The shorter one looks better, thanks.

But what if "listed above" are not just keys, but key sequences, or
even something else ("options" is more general)?

Re: emacs-28 6170c50: Fix regression in help-mode prompt

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>>     "Type one of the above keys%s: "
>>     "Type a key listed above%s: "
>
> The shorter one looks better, thanks.
>
> But what if "listed above" are not just keys, but key sequences, or
> even something else ("options" is more general)?

I guess one alternative is

    "Type an option listed above%s: "

which is just one character longer than

    "Type one of listed options%s: "

Stephen Berman <stephen.berman@gmx.net> writes:

> Is this about the *Metahelp* buffer displayed by typing `C-h ?'?  Then I
> think it's sufficient to prompt with "Type one of the options%s: ",
> since the buffer containing the options is in plain view.

That's also good.  I don't really have a strong preference either way,
but yours has the advantage that it is even shorter than the original.