From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:46:59 -0800 Message-ID: References: <831qb45fog.fsf@gnu.org> <50A7AFED-DA37-4212-9ED1-7D906C34B6B2@traductaire-libre.org> <83o7e51bws.fsf@gnu.org> <83mstp11sz.fsf@gnu.org> <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0iz3lx0.fsf@yahoo.com> <877ckqa6m5.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="19157"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Jean-Christophe Helary , vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 04 05:48:02 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rLFeE-0004rG-Gs for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 05:48:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLFdU-0001Qo-Na; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 23:47:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLFdK-0001Qc-Js for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 23:47:06 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12a.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12a]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLFdI-0000Ax-Ik; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 23:47:06 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12a.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-50e8ca6c76dso108588e87.3; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 20:47:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704343620; x=1704948420; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NB27ufO+ssaepsT3w39ue2103yrGc6VlS6KiiG0fAao=; b=VmANQbAZbkwSPtFVPtsmWxYA21C5t44EPFXrxEiTGl1a7HhXslaDIpVF7P5bEzIEJA MSWZtbIvpCpM+O2chY8wbxNtjLav8/HhSvjHqsT/uaZSPtDjWxZV4yR+kzjIJQeWTSw/ pnI1NuW2qPOR+TujKtmnbbGG1RjWicx/SAK10uD3/lyU1ct5soGGIZA0RSrNrMTVaFbJ 8hf7Rtse8kL9CTPJMKAq4Dq3KP+5hZkD6jG+n32QDeH+ngPGTXQSYTVrwpRShdY/yg73 aqrGXHFykeRrwnphyGAb3v6DkRvnQeWN4V8UFa8VdslrLeTakQXx1cY5lsgIrKm57G6W D82w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704343620; x=1704948420; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=NB27ufO+ssaepsT3w39ue2103yrGc6VlS6KiiG0fAao=; b=Cw5nSHMDZEKF+UI6qwBUPUp+tyZvIvoxNICLkBLO8gUiYP9u3M5Ulp1lx6t8XP/1nj 7KQbEo+tO6tJGA/bH7iIpLz1PSuBvxx0oJwdP1yyTXFzEeP07sH6XMcwTvGJ/NxHbrqL 19F/HQ72rKYj+CurhqK7EYH/GEtEXRhCl+4KJES77Cp5T59bYSenQB+KKdogIR8xysqD czvUtUBMVdB8UTr/3Ef0z29dUcmxYzy3Fb2va8gW9JZBw44t30tZZ2i1tu1S5XV2jNVQ mmUbht5XkJAa7w304G0NYY6102csWHBT7QLe9pGQOK39y1Ade4MgVek9sglieClPz7R/ Pf8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwWRfj3tWCljK02FpabQmnl9QqYXhVZTznESqC7GNx+zdsfQF2j +sOxgAkREo2m+1LquIKh3DIkDst+YaZzwsEz6uw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEzG8A0uyhf4aIPpHQbwNF2eX9V9nINBjrZxyZm0oVYhHplBZoh7xca4gEEj91WsLY4MVJoJG5bZIg3n7FFXHo= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4247:0:b0:50e:84a7:b49c with SMTP id m7-20020ac24247000000b0050e84a7b49cmr14265lfl.130.1704343620208; Wed, 03 Jan 2024 20:47:00 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:46:59 -0800 In-Reply-To: <877ckqa6m5.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12a; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12a.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314517 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > The danger in accepting such translations is not a potential shortage of > contributors _willing_ to take up their upkeep whom we might attract by > distributing them under our own seal of approval, it is the motivation > and ability of such contributors (many of whom have offered us their > services) to carry such tasks to completion. Without this we will land > ourselves with a collection of incomplete manuals and accountability for > their faults, which will place yet more strain on an already-burdened > group of contributors, none of whom, I trust, can dedicate enough of > their time to maintaining such manuals in just the languages widely > spoken in technical circles (i.e. German, French, Russian, Hebrew), let > alone each and every language that might see interest expressed in being > the target of a translation of the Emacs manual, or that our users > speak. If I understand you correctly, your concern is that we will be responsible for the translations. To me, that would imply that we will have to spend significant time maintaining them. But I don't think it will be like that in practice. Instead, we have to make it clear that the translation teams (often: interested individuals) for the respective languages will be responsible for the translations. Furthermore, only the English manual can be considered canonical for the foreseeable future, since we cannot proofread translations like we do with the English one. It therefore makes a lot of sense to add suitable disclaimers (dates, version numbers, etc.) to the translated manuals. We could perhaps consider having several "tiers" of manuals: one "nursery" for those are not yet meaningfully ready for distribution, one "attic" for those that are no longer reasonably maintained, and one for those that we actually do consider up to scratch. The decision for what goes where could be based on a dialogue between the maintainers and the translators of various manuals. > There is nothing to suggest that users cannot locate an outdated or > incomplete manual over the Internet. I don't dispute that they serve a > worthwhile (if not crucial) purpose, my reservations are that we should > not take _responsibility_ for them while being fully aware of factors > that make for a very real chance that they won't deliver. Then if the > time comes when interest in them does increase such that it becomes > sound for us to assume that responsibility, we can always revisit any > decisions that might have been made up to that time. I believe that the moment will _never_ present itself when we are sent a patch containing a fully translated, high-quality and up-to-date manual backed with an active team of translators, copyright assigned and ready to be merged. We have to build things up over time, and preferably in communication with the translators themselves. >From the outside, it is likely that the impression is that we are rather uninterested in translating Emacs to other languages. The fact that there are fully translated materials distributed elsewhere speaks to that. If we double down on a workflow where we are happy to see manuals translated, but do not want to distribute them, then that impression will be cemented. On the other hand, if we already had the infrastructure in place for translations, it would be more clear that we are, in fact, interested. This would be true even if we had only a small handful of manuals or work-in-progress translations there: at least we would have a framework. Our obviously central position in the Emacs world means that this in itself could help promote these efforts, and hopefully also encourage volunteers to take on translation work. > Being realistic in our estimate of our own capabilities is not > defeatism, nor is requesting that interested participants stage their > work separately discouraging, which incidentally won't preclude > obtaining copyright assignment for such work should it ever come to > that. It was not my intention to call your stance defeatist, but rather to warn against it, since the current situation is neither fixed nor impossible to change. I apologize if I was being unclear. I'm interested in hearing what people think about this, but if Jean-Christophe and others intend to set up the relevant infrastructure in emacs.git, I think we should try to encourage that. I do think it is important that we are careful to set things up in such a way that the translating work isn't too disruptive for regular Emacs development. Personally, I also would like to never have to see the French translations in the course of my usage of Emacs: only users that ask for it specifically, or use a French locale should see them.