bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Christopher Howard]

Hello. Recently I was using dired to transfer 600 files, with about 2GB data total, across our LAN (one wi-fi hop involved). The source was a local directory, and the target was an SSH host on the LAN. I marked the files I wanted with dired-mark-files-regexp, and then used dired-do-copy to send them to "/ssh:<snip>@<snip>:/home/<snip>/<snip>". This took a really long time. Actually, the copy was still going after about 15 hours (overnight) though I could see it had not frozen up, but was still moving files.

Using scp directly, from Gnome console, I am seeing transfer rates of about 2.5 MB/s over the same path. So, I'm wondering why the large disparity. Could somebody explain further how Emacs goes about moving the file data and where the bottleneck would be. Is there room for improvement in this functionality?


In GNU Emacs 30.0.92 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.41, cairo version 1.18.0) of 2024-12-04 built on theoden
Repository revision: 130c2a13dc72fca1677a986d3131398e908e58df
Repository branch: emacs-30
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12101012
System Description: Guix System

Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=/home/christopher/local/emacs 'CFLAGS=-O0 -g3'
 PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/gnu/store/f335yc4x4ps0qalm4hafy0dggsfczfkj-profile/lib/pkgconfig:/gnu/store/f335yc4x4ps0qalm4hafy0dggsfczfkj-profile/share/pkgconfig:/home/christopher/.guix-home/profile/lib/pkgconfig:/home/christopher/.guix-home/profile/share/pkgconfig:/home/christopher/.guix-profile/lib/pkgconfig:/home/christopher/.guix-profile/share/pkgconfig'

Configured features:
ACL CAIRO DBUS FREETYPE GIF GLIB GMP GNUTLS GPM GSETTINGS HARFBUZZ JPEG
LCMS2 LIBSELINUX LIBXML2 MODULES NOTIFY INOTIFY PDUMPER PNG RSVG SECCOMP
SOUND SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS X11 XDBE XIM XINPUT2 XPM
GTK3 ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $EMACSLOADPATH: /home/christopher/local/emacs/share/emacs/30.0.92/lisp:/home/christopher/.guix-home/profile/share/emacs/site-lisp
  value of $EMACSNATIVELOADPATH: /home/christopher/local/emacs/share/emacs/30.0.92/lisp:/home/christopher/.guix-home/profile/lib/emacs/native-site-lisp
  value of $LANG: en_US.utf8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Summary

Minor modes in effect:
  global-git-commit-mode: t
  magit-auto-revert-mode: t
  repeat-mode: t
  pdf-occur-global-minor-mode: t
  engine-mode: t
  rcirc-track-minor-mode: t
  roam-track-minor-mode: t
  org-roam-db-autosync-mode: t
  server-mode: t
  helm-mode: t
  helm-minibuffer-history-mode: t
  async-bytecomp-package-mode: t
  minibuffer-depth-indicate-mode: t
  global-display-line-numbers-mode: t
  display-line-numbers-mode: t
  cl-old-struct-compat-mode: 1
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  column-number-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
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Features:
(shadow emacsbug calc-misc calc-alg calc-ext calc-menu calc
calc-loaddefs calc-macs tramp-cmds hl-line pdf-sync pdf-annot facemenu
pdf-outline pdf-links pdf-history helm-fd magit-bookmark magit-submodule
magit-blame magit-stash magit-reflog magit-bisect magit-push magit-pull
magit-fetch magit-clone magit-remote magit-commit magit-sequence
magit-notes magit-worktree magit-tag magit-merge magit-branch
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cl-preloaded button loaddefs theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp
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threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting cairo gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty move-toolbar
make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 2416107 514246) (symbols 48 72567 44)
 (strings 32 517187 46455) (string-bytes 1 21524671)
 (vectors 16 146355) (vector-slots 8 2375156 335385)
 (floats 8 4097 17133) (intervals 56 180333 22466) (buffers 984 180))

-- 
📛 Christopher Howard
🚀 gemini://gem.librehacker.com
🌐 http://gem.librehacker.com

בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Stefan Kangas]

Christopher Howard <christopher@librehacker.com> writes:

> Hello. Recently I was using dired to transfer 600 files, with about 2GB data total, across our LAN (one wi-fi hop involved). The source was a local directory, and the target was an SSH host on the LAN. I marked the files I wanted with dired-mark-files-regexp, and then used dired-do-copy to send them to "/ssh:<snip>@<snip>:/home/<snip>/<snip>". This took a really long time. Actually, the copy was still going after about 15 hours (overnight) though I could see it had not frozen up, but was still moving files.
>
> Using scp directly, from Gnome console, I am seeing transfer rates of about 2.5 MB/s over the same path. So, I'm wondering why the large disparity. Could somebody explain further how Emacs goes about moving the file data and where the bottleneck would be. Is there room for improvement in this functionality?

Michael, any comments?

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Michael Albinus via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Christopher Howard <christopher@librehacker.com> writes:
>
>> Hello. Recently I was using dired to transfer 600 files, with about
>> 2GB data total, across our LAN (one wi-fi hop involved). The source
>> was a local directory, and the target was an SSH host on the LAN. I
>> marked the files I wanted with dired-mark-files-regexp, and then
>> used dired-do-copy to send them to
>> "/ssh:<snip>@<snip>:/home/<snip>/<snip>". This took a really long
>> time. Actually, the copy was still going after about 15 hours
>> (overnight) though I could see it had not frozen up, but was still
>> moving files.
>>
>> Using scp directly, from Gnome console, I am seeing transfer rates
>> of about 2.5 MB/s over the same path. So, I'm wondering why the
>> large disparity. Could somebody explain further how Emacs goes about
>> moving the file data and where the bottleneck would be. Is there
>> room for improvement in this functionality?
>
> Michael, any comments?

Tramp's "ssh" method is not suited for this use case. It encodes the
local file with base64, and decodes it when it has been arrived on the
remote side.

For this given use case, Tramp's "scp" method is better suited. See the
discussion in the manual, (info "(tramp) Connection types") and (info
"(tramp) Frequently Asked Questions") , the entry "How to speed up TRAMP".

Best regards, Michael.

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Christopher Howard]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Tramp's "ssh" method is not suited for this use case. It encodes the
> local file with base64, and decodes it when it has been arrived on the
> remote side.
>
> For this given use case, Tramp's "scp" method is better suited. See the
> discussion in the manual, (info "(tramp) Connection types") and (info
> "(tramp) Frequently Asked Questions") , the entry "How to speed up TRAMP".

Okay, thank you. I switched to "scp" method and it was much faster. Somehow I didn't realize or remember that there was a separate Tramp info manual, but I will spend more time studying that.

-- 
Christopher Howard

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Michael Albinus via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Christopher Howard <christopher@librehacker.com> writes:

Hi Christopher,

>> Tramp's "ssh" method is not suited for this use case. It encodes the
>> local file with base64, and decodes it when it has been arrived on the
>> remote side.
>>
>> For this given use case, Tramp's "scp" method is better suited. See the
>> discussion in the manual, (info "(tramp) Connection types") and (info
>> "(tramp) Frequently Asked Questions") , the entry "How to speed up TRAMP".
>
> Okay, thank you. I switched to "scp" method and it was much
> faster. Somehow I didn't realize or remember that there was a separate
> Tramp info manual, but I will spend more time studying that.

Thank you for the feedback. Honestly, almost nobody reads the Tramp manual.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Stefan Kangas]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Tramp's "ssh" method is not suited for this use case. It encodes the
> local file with base64, and decodes it when it has been arrived on the
> remote side.
>
> For this given use case, Tramp's "scp" method is better suited. See the
> discussion in the manual, (info "(tramp) Connection types") and (info
> "(tramp) Frequently Asked Questions") , the entry "How to speed up TRAMP".

Thanks.  Would it be possible to detect this situation and either warn
the user about it, or even automatically switch over to scp?

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Michael Albinus via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Stefan,

>> Tramp's "ssh" method is not suited for this use case. It encodes the
>> local file with base64, and decodes it when it has been arrived on the
>> remote side.
>>
>> For this given use case, Tramp's "scp" method is better suited. See the
>> discussion in the manual, (info "(tramp) Connection types") and (info
>> "(tramp) Frequently Asked Questions") , the entry "How to speed up TRAMP".
>
> Thanks.  Would it be possible to detect this situation and either warn
> the user about it, or even automatically switch over to scp?

What would be the check? "A user wants to copy 600 files, with about 2GB
data total, via ssh"? Tramp doesn't know this, it works file-wise. Such a
check must reside in dired, but I still doubt we'll find a good rule.

And, btw, a file with a size less that tramp-copy-size-limit (10240 bytes)
would still be copied via ssh, and not via scp. This check must also be
part of the rule.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Stefan Kangas]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Thanks.  Would it be possible to detect this situation and either warn
>> the user about it, or even automatically switch over to scp?
>
> What would be the check? "A user wants to copy 600 files, with about 2GB
> data total, via ssh"? Tramp doesn't know this, it works file-wise. Such a
> check must reside in dired, but I still doubt we'll find a good rule.

Something along those lines is what I imagined, yes.  The rule might not
be perfect, but we could probably come up with some reasonable defaults
if we thought about it.  But if it's not an interesting suggestion, then
that's fine by me.

Thanks for the explanation!

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Michael Albinus via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

Hi Stefan,

>>> Thanks.  Would it be possible to detect this situation and either warn
>>> the user about it, or even automatically switch over to scp?
>>
>> What would be the check? "A user wants to copy 600 files, with about 2GB
>> data total, via ssh"? Tramp doesn't know this, it works file-wise. Such a
>> check must reside in dired, but I still doubt we'll find a good rule.
>
> Something along those lines is what I imagined, yes.  The rule might not
> be perfect, but we could probably come up with some reasonable defaults
> if we thought about it.  But if it's not an interesting suggestion, then
> that's fine by me.

If somebody adds this to dired, I won't object. Personally, I'm not interested.

> Thanks for the explanation!

Best regards, Michael.

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Christopher Howard]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

>> What would be the check? "A user wants to copy 600 files, with about 2GB
>> data total, via ssh"? Tramp doesn't know this, it works file-wise. Such a
>> check must reside in dired, but I still doubt we'll find a good rule.
>
> Something along those lines is what I imagined, yes.  The rule might not
> be perfect, but we could probably come up with some reasonable defaults
> if we thought about it.  But if it's not an interesting suggestion, then
> that's fine by me.

I don't think this is a critical issue, but another idea would be to simply have dired echo some kind of warning, suggesting to use the other method, and maybe referencing the manual.

The tricky part there, I think, is that the warning would get cleared from the echo area, by dired's progress messages, before the user had a chance to read or notice it. So I'm not sure if that would be useful in practice.

-- 
Christopher Howard

bug#74855: 30.0.92; dired - slow copy across (wireless) LAN

[Stefan Kangas]

severity 74855 wishlist
tags 74855 + notabug
close 74855
thanks

Christopher Howard <christopher@librehacker.com> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>>> What would be the check? "A user wants to copy 600 files, with about
>>> 2GB data total, via ssh"? Tramp doesn't know this, it works
>>> file-wise. Such a check must reside in dired, but I still doubt
>>> we'll find a good rule.
>>
>> Something along those lines is what I imagined, yes.  The rule might
>> not be perfect, but we could probably come up with some reasonable
>> defaults if we thought about it.  But if it's not an interesting
>> suggestion, then that's fine by me.
>
> I don't think this is a critical issue, but another idea would be to
> simply have dired echo some kind of warning, suggesting to use the
> other method, and maybe referencing the manual.
>
> The tricky part there, I think, is that the warning would get cleared
> from the echo area, by dired's progress messages, before the user had
> a chance to read or notice it. So I'm not sure if that would be useful
> in practice.

Patches to that effect are welcome.  Please open a new bug report for
that if you decide to give it a try; I'm closing this bug report with
this message.

Thanks.