From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Telemetry, opt-in,opt-out [was: Proposal: new default bindings for winner and windmove] Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:23:19 -0700 Message-ID: References: <7133BE83-064B-43A4-A193-61376605222C@dancol.org> <055E6E92-6971-409E-A106-7E0C64FEF856@dancol.org> <87bk3r22x5.fsf@yahoo.com> <405F39B4-99C9-4086-9A6B-310B7409A861@dancol.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9669"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione , tomas@tuxteam.de Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jun 23 17:24:34 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1sLP4z-0002Gl-W0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 17:24:33 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLP3t-0001fE-6G; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:23:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLP3r-0001f5-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:23:23 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1sLP3q-00039h-9F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 11:23:23 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ebeefb9a6eso37463731fa.1 for ; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:23:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1719156200; x=1719761000; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AxlfIYSNyxkjiW/LHwTwcW4ORI91XYtXdZZf3gvl12Y=; b=YRhTE5froLE8nWypV01qMi/wvHn87TNt3stLBb1B6oCEP/i+0IkPhh/qP9oVfpbd80 9Tcfn81xu9W6RLVuTKm+kYI4hUmIF5TmFHsuGCamcOj8LycHmo2ZEc9l9oeC8QA40vPD 1gC3jb+jOpL50wiHULCAowSazbdg6zrhRlO3XiBhnj0WYyqE+qrZAGF9SpqAikvvpG8g WRLeIi87ruqSncLcRHSc5s34y2EJkqYY2mes4AUSumh02NdObFRQY63CONNyZ1TthYv+ lRbiW6SvxPKo41B4YIDqiwBKdX5WRqDiDgyuawYMzXThzFH3yJjfrAUI/IO7ZJy3yvWV 3D2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1719156200; x=1719761000; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=AxlfIYSNyxkjiW/LHwTwcW4ORI91XYtXdZZf3gvl12Y=; b=pA1ApEqRKq4PxkrAX3B5Kh1nPT2GFIaNDshGmfM123WEFxyJlwCQhxEPObFI2dE4n5 Zgbb/JQGgt+dG82OKMGaGzdPcNqtVIz0lAXbyRBq78oOSQzqGq0iwmDq2pl2S+EvSNbc 3MN0O5HjbHeTvEWRaY1JD7DcqGuNOPZRGbAWsD/YEO6P5nhZF5UJN2/OGpfXHGLVcrgq WAYmCZ9fT+9JjRZN7wLLwqehUmE7Mt4EQCsTB8c2OmXZ8WZGBRs3vKCD39Tr55dPuDT+ j2CPifdlSWO5IYPM8IyLcaIVzWQ0aM2OoFtsjaDqhHACPtCFL5AlCsv9tW27KyG2Ow1P BiAw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxc2eh13jKBn0ByPRtFtlmMTSDr7CCS+zbUaJBnMzFCs1VRTfO4 Nxio68OYanEZe3kttSU7KbZyAK45AyJK9C9eN9R3cjMIv/Ig75x6RxZ5VL96eWIb/cc5NEhmual 3NQdhQRPT0jpAShkTfn9Z3qeONoIikqew5ro= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFHv25JKxv1M4vwenqddoOzwy8JjEZDBYLKahKvsQjK3XXHJ6PQPnBx+AMAn0pNF3OWBKc6P46RfjaQiLfXAyQ= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8795:0:b0:2ec:561f:9605 with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2ec593c15a0mr18373241fa.5.1719156199727; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sun, 23 Jun 2024 08:23:19 -0700 In-Reply-To: <405F39B4-99C9-4086-9A6B-310B7409A861@dancol.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::236; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x236.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:320546 Archived-At: Daniel Colascione writes: >>Whatever "industry standard" means. Industry standard is >>surveillance capitalism these days. Not something to strive >>for, not in free software's context, I think. > > Nothing to do with free software. A free program that collects > anonymized usage metrics is still free. The simple fact is that the > more you learn about your users's preferences, the better you can > satisfy their desires. As long as users can opt out, I see no moral > quandary whatsoever, especially if the program explicitly asks the > user about anonymized data collection on first startup. This might not be spelled out in the GNU GPL, but it is definitely an issue that has concerned the Free Software movement. You might not care strongly about this, but other people do. We should respect those users, and thus make any type of metrics opt-in. IMO, Debian's popcon gets this right: it's opt-in, and the statistics can be reasonably anonymized by sending them over Tor. If anyone wants to work on something like this, please be aware that this is very likely going to be the bare minimum for us to be able to accept it. Thanks.