From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Translating Emacs manuals is of strategic importance Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2024 16:34:26 -0800 Message-ID: References: <831qb45fog.fsf@gnu.org> <50A7AFED-DA37-4212-9ED1-7D906C34B6B2@traductaire-libre.org> <83o7e51bws.fsf@gnu.org> <83mstp11sz.fsf@gnu.org> <91D00B9D-0057-4748-8C83-50E749FE3961@traductaire-libre.org> <835y0b29rk.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0iz3lx0.fsf@yahoo.com> <877ckqa6m5.fsf@yahoo.com> <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16095"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Jean-Christophe Helary , vincent.b.1@hotmail.fr, emacs-devel@gnu.org, rms@gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 05 01:34:54 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rLYAn-00042Y-Mf for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 05 Jan 2024 01:34:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLYAc-00078s-Q6; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:34:42 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLYAb-00078b-Ek for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:34:41 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rLYAZ-0000I6-Nc; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 19:34:41 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-555f581aed9so1258875a12.3; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:34:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1704414877; x=1705019677; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BPlcbTs6JQ7gsDdtMqrtEw6VEFJyNHFkQvQF/cIet4E=; b=MZm9GwOEmVIzhIG3N9DJ+hXFg0Ay7Ke0nHgdVEkELQobEo9WheX9D5BAoKlAYdtHSL aqcN6Nfq7gTVbxzHqMU7FurloGB23gkeeTjKAUmFniN4eCSzkDNpRM/zUEi6TA3mRzp/ oBMfc6UbJGD5qIDwctVhMWDA95ZHv7HZT2aKVuNTOpo370pZgk4i44ngHQ4vPsYciVXJ YWHu35n8y0/W5J6ZUs6c807voOMID8kyHKy2wVduHSrwtgfBDtF63V5gPaRa1CYj254w lO/jaOEjXBWzzrazcKiWJczvEsyMEEv9R9/xnxxGqxPggzAmHV2lCoTCYZzNMH6V4j2i VVRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1704414877; x=1705019677; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=BPlcbTs6JQ7gsDdtMqrtEw6VEFJyNHFkQvQF/cIet4E=; b=OtfGXCrk7k5pMf0yQNfiqvmxDlU2jszdHlEhA6UxbC3zySTyZXdEX4GE8x87I4+VgK EXki3ZJHnkyA59p6TwPbtE5pQTJhf4R+R4Q6fhFb2mZZgCfjdpaPlgxmaYis0e+lLQQc DsE5j5z+Q6bFI2PEQEbJ7kReFUls1eQH8lTIQJPJwAOTh32NRNpn5eqqsQr/HbQpeCL5 9Du4enhn7sIuRdydYUw7sEBgOOT3zzkA86bH3VJmkCfp4vSH4hs1vxO5Yqv5RkfdLuau DLt6286RjVoB3c7/Z7frtMY6vcqD2ckEGxilvT6hcMyW0T0VY7hDl4zXLU84hVvozO/1 liKQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yw2tGDUqsIXlLoEZ9qVYAaF2nUVG0igaPTYT6IzletUPnoShO7m 0JVBeIuuXmQbPc68/yoXvenXjPNlIpruqDp347U= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFmrnwQVHK5aD7OjCEdDwa6cf7dBwxAo9eQZh+SclBWPKhZ6nNrfv3A1rK5TmuqkTbRVWC6zYIzIKX6kIWg4QI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:b46:b0:553:ee28:b97e with SMTP id bx6-20020a0564020b4600b00553ee28b97emr670414edb.26.1704414876744; Thu, 04 Jan 2024 16:34:36 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 4 Jan 2024 16:34:26 -0800 In-Reply-To: <8734vda9kz.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::52d; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-x52d.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:314546 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > If that be so, why is it of great importance for us to distribute these > translations ourselves, further undermining our public image by their > raw nature? Thanks for voicing your concerns. I think I see now where you are coming from. I understand your concern about not distributing and promoting something half-baked. I myself have had some serious concerns about the quality of translations in Free Software, and I have voiced those concerns here in the past. It would even be fair to say that I myself have taken a defeatist stance at times. Still, I note that many people are happy to be using the translations that exist, and consider that better than reading English. This observation, and thinking about this more strategically from the point of view of promoting GNU and Emacs, has lead me to revise my stance. With more users will also come people interested in contributing. If we have nothing at all, on the other hand, it is not so easy to see how to get the ball rolling. I also note that for French, we already have a professional translator on board (Jean-Christophe). We can attract others in the future. And Vincent has volunteered time to this as well, of course. > It is not worth inventing elaborate systems for classifying or > disclaiming manuals and judging which we are directly responsible for, > when another option is to simply refuse involvement in the development > of such non-essential manuals and leave the forces of interest to take > their course, to no detriment of actual readers. I believe that we can get around the public perception issue by having the work principally take place on master, but without distributing unfinished translations in the release tarball. This was the intention when I proposed having a "nursery" for translations that aren't yet complete. There is also _no_rush_ with marking a translation as finished. If it takes a decade or two, then so be it. Emacs is not going away, and neither are the fact that humans use different languages. It won't be worse than the current situation; I think it will be better in many ways. I'm still interested in knowing if anyone sees any serious issues with the basic idea of keeping a nursery. The exact details would have to be worked out, of course, including what we call it. >> We could perhaps consider having several "tiers" of manuals: one >> "nursery" for those are not yet meaningfully ready for distribution, one >> "attic" for those that are no longer reasonably maintained, and one for >> those that we actually do consider up to scratch. The decision for what >> goes where could be based on a dialogue between the maintainers and the >> translators of various manuals. > > This scheme is far too complicated for the number of translations or > translators on the horizon. I know that you disagree, but _if_ we were to develop translations of on master, how would you propose going about it? It is clear that we don't want to distribute and/or promote manuals that are not yet finished.