From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: master 859190f 2/3: Convert some keymaps to defvar-keymap Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:07:04 -0700 Message-ID: References: <20211004081724.6281.11798@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <20211004081727.4F24921048@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org> <871r4qcs8s.fsf@gnus.org> <87o87ubcnl.fsf@gnus.org> <87h7dm9en7.fsf@gnus.org> <818f9907c2b1fe8b54b1@heytings.org> <83tuhlnkxm.fsf@gnu.org> <818f9907c2f359a71f49@heytings.org> <83czo9nj4g.fsf@gnu.org> <818f9907c244b9db0bea@heytings.org> <834k9lnd2i.fsf@gnu.org> <818f9907c2dff3b49971@heytings.org> <83k0ign3zj.fsf@gnu.org> <818f9907c26fb6f0233a@heytings.org> <838rywm7a7.fsf@gnu.org> <9865db3af5547c6ca15c@heytings.org> <9865db3af561bf9f05d1@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27819"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , larsi@gnus.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 14 21:08:36 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mb65j-0006yu-Tc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 21:08:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55006 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mb65i-0001S3-1Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:08:34 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42996) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mb64U-0008Mq-1J for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:07:18 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]:35602) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mb64I-0001r6-Rl; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 15:07:13 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id c29so6300614pfp.2; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:07:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=85Ov7j5xiBUGNYQMTd/NIAmiqwItBBr5l13GOLDSP3Q=; b=A6TnngFqoDpt+XPNg8GN36fTAIHmjzY0eNg4BoQFgItb95P0D1yQYoBX0FiiJhzmyM /zijEGNi4HEFeCyEbJkU3pLJwZpU75YHiM7LlooIrzk/YpIrh1HhVtvi3vx7Gyksb46F 0uDL65smv7wyhe4bqMQRAU2YS9cbIpofkCLW+6gO+mkVjxuzL3qiXJTG8GcBCeJnDupi 31QjZUZpP7YnxOGynIHPU7/5TTIJFlorBXdWh9gzAqxl1H+EhCeRQKNfXktOvfqg3kke zPULxH+uUbBqE9aKH3KUtanLKU5U7J+5M94gEp/aKKki1gNNzJOqJEDTX9nZ2uRE8RFj Po0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=85Ov7j5xiBUGNYQMTd/NIAmiqwItBBr5l13GOLDSP3Q=; b=fv/ouNfV9hVFQgDdQ5roiHFq9VuLTQ+dPOwR6hV/FT5Hc8v/VivSqo/L4uv+RGxT66 Ce6sn4HyGeV+yNwfnIMsa552so5pQZT5mb9eIloqsOLRh2s9ma/Z10btALx8opMKI0rl MxqLjMhtg07CwjoHGxsC7dxzArFL7jOZdoEH+DMqwDNxpf/o8ew5nuEbpw4K6gDg70nv PkakA16H8VVjpc/j+19ypXmvYgQvAmucIrANg3/8HPid2dVIMiTsoU4svUDS9R+E5T4N 4Ovo+StJGhU5xLh5CPZF1btHzqzBbpR5k0HJlTgdg7/mQQbGZY7Z3CXUpSQGSuiIn8VF TJTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532Np4uf9XOk0d3w9lI3RQz0dPuDr/+SIctzOL2K+Z0Ywaacweth qO37mjH3Fnk5hq20rUwvgimxDrp98GEM+Rp2jDQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzNM9CituiL3cBfu6wg1AYRL/azVM4mBKBK1GDS68yWxx1gTbeEGdFL1n07OvFgQUtIf+Tif4gnx6h7Ih3ZCsc= X-Received: by 2002:a63:4717:: with SMTP id u23mr5581505pga.359.1634238425038; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:07:05 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 14 Oct 2021 12:07:04 -0700 In-Reply-To: <9865db3af561bf9f05d1@heytings.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::436; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x436.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:277045 Archived-At: Gregory Heytings writes: > Yes, I've seen his reply. And I do not see what could be cleaner than the > kbd syntax, which has AFAIK been adopted everywhere, including in the > tutorial, manuals, error messages, help buffers, and so forth. For me, it's a no-brainer that we would want to bind keys in the same way as we display them. However, that style as implemented by 'kbd' is not without its problems. It is too allowing in some cases where it would be better to be more strict: (kbd "f 1") => "f1" ; space is not mandatory (kbd "f1") => "f1" ; user intended [f1], got "f 1" (kbd "") => [return] (kbd "return") => "return" ; as above (kbd "f ;; foo") => "f" (kbd "f REM foo") => "f" (kbd "8*a") => "aaaaaaaa" (kbd "\C-a") => "^A" ; fine, but could be disallowed Stefan Monnier says that we should also be able to say things like [(control x)], and I have no objections to that. So the question is not about the format of keybindings, as AFAICT there seems to exist more or less a consensus around it. The question is what API would be useful. > Frankly, I don't see how this minor, and as I've said almost > theoretical problem, should force us to create yet another syntax and > yet another set of key binding functions. Ambiguity is not a good property to have in our most fundamental interfaces, IMO. I think we should not try to retro-fit any DWIM stuff on the old one, as that will lead to various problems. It would be better to provide a new one and promote that as a replacement.