From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Moving packages out of core to ELPA Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:09:33 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87h6i6y2ch.fsf@yahoo.com> <86msrys0qj.fsf@gnu.org> <87r0h9x6og.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4365"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , JD Smith , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Po Lu , Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 19 19:10:16 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rc85o-0000vW-MQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 19:10:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rc85Q-0000K7-LL; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:09:52 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rc85J-0000JS-2W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:09:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lf1-x12b.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::12b]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rc85F-0003Mg-35; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:09:44 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lf1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-5120ecfd75cso6939704e87.0; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:09:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1708366175; x=1708970975; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9KdGjZocqByxcISJy9a2CrKHgvnZlK8cpyIj2vtuico=; b=Cx/iE7Aw++3CIma9s1o4XmiXkIS4Ad78eu4ISv1FQZwegcABdt7+hjqhQedV98Ri/v +5xfILKAYZNGyWBCwh4QsZGEFo7tVPn+lWIkmbHdhW0JXIzJDuRb/8ZZxQFsyujxQhss G5yngn2Gn5//NkNKvo3bO0J0KoAKld3Q7d547cDBBU/o4W8INQDL161p+IVpcc91OanV Y26fDPCrDhGNF7iOKHVcJ80h6TMJzHMcRVVboNkR+6CD+mImrDjO7w/UaUte0GQuyObF jQyM50E151tbfdazl5zC9ZGC1rUZc5lrS29CVubIt0vQVBFxtj+QN+YYR69C9kw71U7i J1Rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1708366175; x=1708970975; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9KdGjZocqByxcISJy9a2CrKHgvnZlK8cpyIj2vtuico=; b=fc/Q7mJOVI55UwamAALUPF6IIVCTBR3/kpVNTOZDb0Y2psD741RzoZ1p4VYXqR4MPC jC/ezojBpvAQxHD01w8TUWmttUZOGkroNqGi299ZoNIoWA9tZ6/jSJHs+a4FONs7W6vB +9gr8qqGTQI1I+UbM3RkfMaDOtZeMAT4WYNH/i0d836aSdfqh+1ZbT4wgId/4XVufPcm oPMdY4lvQUb/mHWRgr9w2VrK4MgMd6b2d6eUD7ujeXix9cnWIieQLEPg7VdW5f+VNnPY 8GqYf0Er02pqLCssmf3utpVdoVEwqtbpilML7j4JcrlBP6yye4cQiw7SDI+ifNgONRhL nJpQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWKE6Mb0cGedVAjmywl5yeFq6F3ugOxW0fdMwZe4mtNgX39mOWrWRUnIpUxnJKzIWu61LafFtMwT680yKgwzy1R8TSD X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yxh8vyUu4jiSkJbECZFikE5n9iF8SPR6/AtPVqfzlzjamJyiCBC RK4kD6QxoIgSl6Pqh2SMrusKcKErweU5+J4qrR7Lj2pk9Il789tKGEGLsr55Icl3uSrgtdIw3c5 X+RVwnTEULZDR2ipsofj6OtveeEo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHX4xSJbQPRxl9BCQ+UadaA7lUz7akoFgRvH1wAynUhQL7Hswi9t+m469OJd4TNxr2gNgbSUanKyPFIsriB9us= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5df3:0:b0:512:aa74:6054 with SMTP id z19-20020ac25df3000000b00512aa746054mr3174190lfq.33.1708366174456; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 10:09:34 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Mon, 19 Feb 2024 13:09:33 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87r0h9x6og.fsf@yahoo.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::12b; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lf1-x12b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:316361 Archived-At: Po Lu writes: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > >> Those who say that the costs of maintenance is tiny, seem to have > .... >> missed the simple statement that the built-in version has diverged >> from its upstream 7 years ago. The maintenance is clearly not being > ... >> done. > > We stand corrected. The cost is _zero_, not tiny. It's not zero here. See Bug#39992 and Bug#69171. To be honest, I find the argument that maintaining code can somehow be done for free surprising. AFAICT, the only code that doesn't increase the maintenance burden is the code that we don't have. I'm therefore not convinced by those that ask us to never delete anything. If idlwave.el is not a sufficient example, I just spent some time on private correspondence regarding another library in Emacs that I personally have wanted to chuck into lisp/obsolete for years. A few weeks ago, I installed a patch someone had sent for another case much like that. Is that a good use of my time? I'm not so sure. But just ignoring parts of Emacs and let them bitrot doesn't seem very attractive either. I think that we do have to take some minimal amount of responsibility for the things that we ship. That said, we don't have too many such files -- in large part thanks to obsoletions that have been done over the years -- but they do still exist. Given our highly limited resources, I think its useful to occasionally ask ourselves if keeping this or that library around is still worth it, and then obsolete it if it isn't.