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From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
To: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: My resignation from Emacs development
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2024 20:28:58 -0600	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CADwFkmmnxbZwp4V_4WaPvUDN9Zu+QnHBxyA6EKa-BpoctKVwCw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Zz38jvRRsSi_6C7U@MAC.fritz.box>

Hi Alan,

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> The immediate reason is that, as maintainer of CC Mode, CC Mode's
> symbols, its names, were taken by Emacs and used for other purposes
> without informing me, much less consulting me.  That makes my position as
> CC Mode maintainer here untenable.

That is highly regrettable.  You are a valued member of our team, and
it's sad to see you go.

> These symbols have been appropriated by Emacs to mean "the current
> preferred mode for C", etc., rather than C Mode, C++ Mode etc.  In
> certain circumstances, in particular, in Local Variables: sections and
> auto-mode-alist, there is now no longer any way unambiguously to specify
> C Mode or C++ Mode.  Up till recently ("\\.myc\\'" . c-mode) in
> auto-mode-alist meant C Mode, and would have had the effect of
> auto-loading CC Mode, if needed, and running C Mode.

From my point of view, we are still in early days when it comes to the
new tree-sitter modes.  For starters, we do not recommend them by
default, and some language modes are also not yet ready for prime-time.
I'm not even sure that a majority of distros ship the feature in a
useful form yet, but I didn't really check.

AFAIU, the purpose of `major-mode-remap-alist` is to provide a mechanism
to respect what users want.  Where there is disagrement, it concerns the
technical details of how to best achieve that, and to which extent we
should set things up automatically based on indicators such as the user
actions "running a mode", "loading a file", or "running a command".

But the feature has teething problems.  My understanding was that we
agreed in Bug#74339 that the situation in Emacs 30 is already better
than in Emacs 29, and that we will continue working on this in Emacs 31.

For example, it has been suggested that we should replace the automatic
setting of `major-mode-remap-defaults` with an entirely new command like
`foo-ts-mode-prefer`, that would be used as the canonical indication
that a user wants to use the tree-sitter mode everywhere.  There surely
exist other options that we could evaluate also.

For this reason, I hope that there is still room to reconsider your
decision to resign.

> Stefan's habit of making big changes in Emacs without seeking consensus
> is at the heart of why I am resigning.  These changes have caused Emacs a
> lot of damage over the years and have caused other contributors,
> including me, extra work and difficulty.  Stefan is a Jekyll-and-Hyde
> character.  On the one hand, he's a very capable hacker, and is always
> ready to help others with technical questions.  On the other hand, as
> mentioned, he is contemptuous of the Emacs conventions, and unlike
> Richard and Eli, does not have the gift of knowing what the Right Thing
> is.

This is where I have to disagree quite strongly.  I find the charges
directed at Stefan Monnier both unfair and one-sided.  I fail to see
which of his actions or words that could possibly warrant such a
negative interpretation, or that would justify assuming any ill intent.

I have to agree with Eli.  Although it would, in hindsight, certainly
have been better to discuss these particular changes in more detail in
advance, I don't see that he has done anything very unusual or different
from what most other core contributors do on a routine basis.

I also do not appreciate where it veers into ad-hominem, such as talking
about Stefan M's character, etc.  That is strictly off-topic here, as
you well know, and does not reach the usual high level of standard that
one would expect from one of your posts.

Can we please all remember that we share the same goal here; that we all
want to help advance Emacs and free software?

> I will shortly be unsubscribing from emacs-devel.  I intend to carry on
> maintaining stand alone CC Mode, and I'm prepared to deal with any CC
> Mode issues which arise in Emacs.  Please post these to
> bug-cc-mode@gnu.org.
>
> It just remains to say that my respect for Eli and the other maintainers
> remains undiminished, and that I wish all of them and the Emacs project
> all success in the future.

Thanks for continuing to maintain CC-mode, and likewise.

I hope that you will seriously consider the idea to reverse your
decision to quit Emacs development.  It would be much better if we could
find a way where we can all continue working together.  I'd suggest
giving the idea at least a couple of days to fully consider, though I'll
of course respect your decision either way.

Meanwhile, if there is anything I can do to help improve things, please
feel free to reach out.  Thanks again for all your work on Emacs.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2024-11-21  2:28 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 207+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2024-11-20 15:13 My resignation from Emacs development Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-20 15:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-20 16:23 ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-21  6:22   ` Gerd Möllmann
2024-11-21 10:05     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-21 11:23       ` Gerd Möllmann
2024-11-21 11:40         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 10:29   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-21 12:26     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-20 16:42 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-11-20 17:04 ` tomas
2024-11-20 21:56 ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-11-21  2:28 ` Stefan Kangas [this message]
2024-11-21 12:34   ` Tree-sitter maturity (was: My resignation from Emacs development) Peter Oliver
2024-11-23 13:41     ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-24  2:10     ` Tree-sitter maturity Björn Bidar
     [not found]     ` <67428b3d.c80a0220.2f3036.adbdSMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-17 22:11       ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-18 13:34         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-19  1:40           ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-19  8:17             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-20  9:13             ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]             ` <6765355b.c80a0220.1a6b24.3117SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-20  9:29               ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-23  0:43                 ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]                 ` <6768b256.c80a0220.222b1b.64e6SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-24  1:20                   ` Yuan Fu
     [not found]                 ` <87frmfxm8y.fsf@>
2024-12-24  4:52                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-24 12:32                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-24 21:31                       ` Xiyue Deng
2024-12-26  4:30                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-27 10:54                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-27 12:40                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-27 13:46                               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-27 14:19                                 ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-27 14:24                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-27 14:57                                     ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-27 15:02                                       ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-29  4:19                                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-29  4:23                                           ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29  7:44                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-29  8:01                                               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29  8:41                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-29  8:59                                                   ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-29  9:14                                                     ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29  9:24                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-29 10:01                                                         ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29 13:35                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-29 20:12                                                             ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29 10:13                                                       ` tomas
2024-12-29 10:21                                                       ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-29 14:59                                                         ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29 14:14                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2024-12-29  7:26                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                                         ` <904957B9-55C1-42DF-BE6A-16986A4B539A@dancol.org>
     [not found]                                           ` <87r05o2eji.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]                                             ` <E2C32D27-EEC2-4DD2-B6F6-8827820B880E@dancol.org>
2024-12-31 16:47                                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-29 14:36                                     ` Lynn Winebarger
2024-12-29 20:36                                       ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29 23:29                                         ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]                                         ` <6771db94.050a0220.386e00.e451SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-30  0:30                                           ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-30  0:36                                             ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-30  1:00                                               ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-31  9:48                                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-30  3:20                                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2024-12-31  3:22                                             ` Björn Bidar
2024-12-31 22:29                                         ` Lynn Winebarger
2025-01-01 20:23                                           ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]                                           ` <6775a459.170a0220.2f3d1e.1897SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2025-01-04 16:15                                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2025-01-04 17:39                                               ` Daniel Colascione
2025-01-04 18:57                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2025-01-04 19:30                                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2025-01-04 20:12                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2025-01-04 20:46                                                       ` Daniel Colascione
2025-01-04 20:57                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2025-01-04 21:18                                                           ` Daniel Colascione
2025-01-05  6:13                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2025-01-04 21:25                                                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2025-01-04 21:34                                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2025-01-04 23:21                                               ` Björn Bidar
2024-12-28 12:20                                   ` Peter Oliver
2024-12-28 12:23                                     ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-29 14:50                                     ` Björn Bidar
2024-12-27 14:59                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-27 15:05                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-27 15:31                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-27 15:37                                       ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-28  1:08                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2024-12-29  4:19                                         ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-29  4:21                                           ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29  6:41                                             ` tomas
2024-12-29  6:43                                               ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29  6:54                                                 ` tomas
2024-12-29  7:05                                                   ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29  8:56                                                     ` tomas
2024-12-29 15:16                                                   ` Björn Bidar
2024-12-29 15:05                                     ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]                                     ` <87ed1qedhl.fsf@>
2024-12-29 15:21                                       ` Daniel Colascione
2024-12-29 16:02                                         ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]                                         ` <663726A2-141B-4B98-80FB-BD93E99AC122@dancol.org>
2024-12-29 19:06                                           ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]                                           ` <6771d84b.050a0220.250914.d0e0SMTPIN_ADDED_BROKEN@mx.google.com>
2024-12-30  0:56                                             ` Yuan Fu
2024-12-27 14:11                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-27 15:06                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-31 13:47                                   ` Philip Kaludercic
2024-12-27 18:29                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-12-28  7:55                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-28  8:11                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2024-12-28  8:58                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-29 15:09                           ` Björn Bidar
2024-12-26  4:32                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-26  7:12                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-29 14:35                         ` Björn Bidar
2024-12-19 12:23           ` Peter Oliver
2024-12-19 12:42             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-19 13:15             ` Vincenzo Pupillo
2024-12-20  8:59           ` Björn Bidar
2024-11-21 13:01   ` My resignation from Emacs development Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-21 13:48     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 14:29       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-11-22  0:01         ` Po Lu
2024-11-22  7:03           ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22  8:14             ` Robert Pluim
2024-11-22  8:32               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22 23:59               ` Po Lu
2024-11-23  6:39                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 16:29       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22  5:35     ` Adam Porter
2024-11-22  7:24       ` Madhu
2024-11-22  8:11         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22  9:26           ` Madhu
2024-11-22 12:07             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22 12:40           ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-22 13:06           ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22 13:39             ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-22 14:25             ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-25  4:28             ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-26 17:37               ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-12-13  4:35                 ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-15 15:27                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-12-15 15:48                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-15 20:43                       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-12-19  4:22                     ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-19  8:26                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 22:18           ` Andrea Corallo
2024-11-22 10:57       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22 23:19         ` Adam Porter
2024-11-26 19:01       ` Daniel Radetsky
2024-11-26 19:51         ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-27  2:18           ` Adam Porter
2024-11-27  9:36             ` Daniel Radetsky
2024-11-27  9:59             ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-30  3:52             ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-30  7:53               ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 16:22                 ` Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was: My resignation from Emacs development] Drew Adams
2024-11-30 16:56                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 21:06                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-12-01  6:00                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-03  7:26                 ` My resignation from Emacs development Richard Stallman
2024-12-03 13:33                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 16:21               ` Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Drew Adams
2024-11-30 17:05                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-30 21:09                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-12-01  6:12                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-01 19:23                       ` Drew Adams
2024-12-03  7:25                   ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-03 13:32                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-06  4:48                       ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-02  4:09                 ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-02 13:04                   ` Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-02 15:32                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2024-12-05  5:08                     ` Richard Stallman
2024-12-05  6:33                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-12-02 15:29                   ` [External] : Re: Discuss new features/enhancements or large changes for users in emacs-devel [was My resignation from Emacs development] Drew Adams
2024-11-27  2:06         ` My resignation from Emacs development Adam Porter
2024-11-27  9:17           ` Daniel Radetsky
2024-11-22 15:36     ` Stefan Kangas
2024-11-22 17:48       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-23 23:43     ` Stefan Monnier via Emacs development discussions.
2024-11-23  6:10   ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-23  7:48     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 11:06       ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-23 11:54         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 12:48           ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-23 23:59       ` Adam Porter
2024-12-01  3:50         ` Sean Whitton
2024-12-01  6:19           ` tomas
2024-11-24 18:12     ` Suhail Singh
2024-11-26  4:56       ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-26  7:38         ` Suhail Singh
2024-11-21  5:59 ` Gerd Möllmann
2024-11-22 11:36   ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-22 11:52     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23 10:36       ` Alan Mackenzie
2024-11-23 11:31         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 13:39 ` Andrea Corallo
2024-11-21 19:01   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2024-11-21 19:19     ` Christopher Dimech
2024-11-21 19:47     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-21 19:40 ` Jim Porter
2024-11-24  4:35   ` Richard Stallman
2024-11-21 23:57 ` Po Lu
2024-11-22 17:26 ` On committing significant and/or controversial changes (was: My resignation from Emacs development) Ihor Radchenko
2024-11-22 17:47   ` Ship Mints
2024-11-22 19:04     ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-24  2:35       ` On committing significant and/or controversial changes Björn Bidar
2024-11-24  4:41         ` Adam Porter
2024-11-30  2:16           ` Björn Bidar
     [not found]       ` <87ttbx73zu.fsf@>
2024-11-24  8:26         ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-22 19:01   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23  6:10 ` My resignation from Emacs development Richard Stallman
2024-11-23  8:50   ` Eli Zaretskii
2024-11-23  6:10 ` Richard Stallman

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