From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: etc/HELLO: On Chinese and Cantonese Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:45:23 -0700 Message-ID: References: <87mu0e3giu.fsf@posteo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10039"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Mingde (Matthew) Zeng" , Kai Ma Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Oct 22 13:48:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kVZ4a-0002W7-4v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 13:48:00 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50566 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVZ4Z-000341-5N for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 07:47:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40348) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVZ2S-0001E0-8U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 07:45:52 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ej1-x633.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::633]:38058) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kVZ26-0007F0-UB for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 07:45:47 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ej1-x633.google.com with SMTP id ce10so1829027ejc.5 for ; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:45:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ph/2wfaMn5JtdMEotpIoS0aD7EDopGLstxt9KfaPDf4=; b=QwKD8+b1fCphbxEZgD3V9/R0t0ISq8OMnO31Zjl2IvOWuHQi7jfBPnlG8o/PllI+25 q7AcTfRXJy6BXKI48Oz2BwvI5ccy91wXixXX90XumNFzP8NWmzVMY2LnA+lKDoLlYalT b9xObP+B0oL66NO0jWFVD6vap1fcYq+fVJfonsbTr/dzsqMw+mgAj5Vj+lSKMQbHWOpU Hr3Nd6zF9WCncMzi1W1VCVfvuj3upx6CI4Ujmp2ig1f27PVce+gbjw76i5iPelo5lJqo udk+KzeLbiZMUuQCQ7sjfI5bcH1FcMcetIwcnEYKWk813vBx5OBley5TSIsROcCu7Ca/ Qd9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ph/2wfaMn5JtdMEotpIoS0aD7EDopGLstxt9KfaPDf4=; b=R4hBev5tyYuISr1dNv38dP2Yv8cT5nPl4qB0E7j00EsdYpxiVa6WndK8o+paji0lZo 7xtVmGGMZfqrbeknY45/LPkAvmEi5pMF7iyZrUnXdajJK4A+yT0Y4QftIbSoQ11tzMW+ bgT795R/yIXG9j/FAYcwrK8WBAyljE5L5xLxKCWVZPjGU88//Rragwmt12pI7A1Ennqx E9b4LjOeLaEfSEpYe+mTymNo0LXya/ky9F+A3Ia1R1y7xjyOcMTZVGSb7+Tqt1U6zkht zkC/lJmiZVHFChwe4G9cpk2S7HOBXxtG3FVSLgnXQ9LJ1BDl4aV/wIWR5sM9FZdUL8FJ A4SQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530i5/6/8uWBPv7gdQMqNtrAmjrIS/V5oRbi/pqKJeJrNzo0ewm7 m12KGcaM7ZPHIjM92sDeCPclOhafoMvNzb6Uk1E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwRHxVdEpNUy8CJ0gVZDwc3zuCS8dypte2A3GpRnPkZ6t9ERTqcPyUaEpH/UAg75LNJZArti/OtSmeavudukB8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:3e4b:: with SMTP id t11mr1761597eji.420.1603367124574; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 22 Oct 2020 04:45:23 -0700 In-Reply-To: <87mu0e3giu.fsf@posteo.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::633; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-ej1-x633.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:258274 Archived-At: "Mingde (Matthew) Zeng" writes: > As a Chinese myself, I must point out that there is virtually _no_ > Chinese who would say "=E6=97=A9=E6=99=A8, =E4=BD=A0=E5=A5=BD" when they = greet someone, regardless > of whether they speak Mandarin or Cantonese. Although it is > technically correct, it is _super_ weird for someone to say it this > way. Is it correct in written language? > Basically the meaningful difference between Mandarin and Cantonese on > paper is that the former uses simplified Chinese and the latter uses > traditional Chinese. Fortuntaely, when it comes to greet someone, both > mandarin and cantonese use "=E4=BD=A0=E5=A5=BD", which is the same in bot= h > simplified and traditional. > > Therefore I propose to rmeove the Cantonese line entirely, and change > "(=E4=B8=AD=E6=96=87,=E6=99=AE=E9=80=9A=E8=AF=9D,=E6=B1=89=E8=AF=AD)" to = "(=E4=B8=AD=E6=96=87)" The purpose of the HELLO file is to demonstrate the capabilities of Emacs to display various scripts (and detect problems in that support). As far as I understand, written Chinese is pretty much always the same but there are two ways to write the characters: traditional and simplified. In contrast, the spoken languages (of which there are many) can be completely different. So perhaps we should ideally just replace "Chinese" and "Cantonese" with these two entries: Chinese (simplified) Chinese (traditional) And then try to find some greetings that are actually different in the two scripts. I don't think they need to be natural in spoken language, but they would have to be technically correct in the written language. If they are unusual, that is fine, because the purpose is mostly to show the difference between the scripts. Does that proposal make sense?