* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 [not found] ` <20240623083013.0C544C1FB5B@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> @ 2024-06-23 12:49 ` Stefan Kangas 2024-06-23 13:09 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kangas @ 2024-06-23 12:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu, emacs-devel Po Lu via Mailing list for Emacs changes <emacs-diffs@gnu.org> writes: > branch: scratch/windows-98 > commit 18e7a9f3d0c27385f8efeb2b1ef80b3446dca288 > Author: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> > Commit: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> > > Restore functionality on Windows 98 What does "restore functionality" mean here? In what state has the Windows 98 build been, and for how long? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 2024-06-23 12:49 ` scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 Stefan Kangas @ 2024-06-23 13:09 ` Po Lu 2024-06-23 13:36 ` Stefan Kangas 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2024-06-23 13:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: emacs-devel Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes: > In what state has the Windows 98 build been, and for how long? Please read last week's Windows 9X thread and the ChangeLog entry, where all this was elaborated upon at great length. Just remember that, whatever you should conclude, _there is no pretext on which to abandon support for Windows 98 to be had from this change_, or in the existing condition of NTEmacs. Thanks. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 2024-06-23 13:09 ` Po Lu @ 2024-06-23 13:36 ` Stefan Kangas 2024-06-23 13:48 ` Eli Zaretskii 2024-06-23 14:04 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 2 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kangas @ 2024-06-23 13:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacs-devel Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes: > >> In what state has the Windows 98 build been, and for how long? > > Please read last week's Windows 9X thread and the ChangeLog entry, where > all this was elaborated upon at great length. > > Thanks. Thanks, I read that, but it didn't answer my questions. Let me try to reformulate what I'm asking: - Is the Windows 98 build currently broken? - How long has the Windows 98 build been broken? These questions are important, because they will tell us something about how much use this platform is seeing. If it's been broken for 10+ years and no users have noticed, then, well... > Just remember that, whatever you should conclude, _there is no pretext > on which to abandon support for Windows 98 to be had from this > change_, or in the existing condition of NTEmacs. Tempting as it is to propose that we abandon support for museum machines (that should properly be running museum software), that's not my intention here. I'm merely trying to understand the state of Emacs as it is now, and what we are planning to do. At some point, we will abandon support for Windows 98 (and presumably MS-DOS too) in modern Emacs. Dropping such support will simplify various parts of our codebase. When that will happen is not really my decision. I think Eli is the one to say when we should pull the plug. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 2024-06-23 13:36 ` Stefan Kangas @ 2024-06-23 13:48 ` Eli Zaretskii 2024-06-23 14:04 ` Po Lu 1 sibling, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2024-06-23 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: luangruo, emacs-devel > From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> > Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2024 06:36:58 -0700 > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > > Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > > > Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes: > > > >> In what state has the Windows 98 build been, and for how long? > > > > Please read last week's Windows 9X thread and the ChangeLog entry, where > > all this was elaborated upon at great length. > > > > Thanks. > > Thanks, I read that, but it didn't answer my questions. > > Let me try to reformulate what I'm asking: > - Is the Windows 98 build currently broken? Yes. > - How long has the Windows 98 build been broken? Several months at least. > These questions are important, because they will tell us something about > how much use this platform is seeing. Not much, but then the fixes are also quite simple. > I think Eli is the one to say when we should pull the plug. I say not yet, at least for Windows 9X. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 2024-06-23 13:36 ` Stefan Kangas 2024-06-23 13:48 ` Eli Zaretskii @ 2024-06-23 14:04 ` Po Lu 2024-06-23 18:31 ` Stefan Kangas 1 sibling, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2024-06-23 14:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: emacs-devel Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes: > Thanks, I read that, but it didn't answer my questions. > > Let me try to reformulate what I'm asking: > - Is the Windows 98 build currently broken? > - How long has the Windows 98 build been broken? > > These questions are important, because they will tell us something about > how much use this platform is seeing. If it's been broken for 10+ years > and no users have noticed, then, well... All these questions are answered in that thread, as is the question why many of these problems were not detected by other users of Windows 98. > At some point, we will abandon support for Windows 98 (and presumably > MS-DOS too) in modern Emacs. Over my dead body. Supporting Windows 98 is a bare necessity, at least so long as I must print documents with a government-registered printer from time to time, and the MS-DOS port is an interesting technical project, absent which Emacs development will be considerably more dull than it is now. Furthermore, it is today possible to run Emacs on an up-to-date MS-DOS system that is 100% Free Software, as not only FreeDOS, but the original MS-DOS, are or have apparently been released under free licenses, and Emacs is capable of bootstrapping under at least the former system. What's more, the MS-DOS port was well and truly nonfunctional over several non-contiguous periods lasting multiple years each, most recently during the entire lifespan of Emacs 27. Few users noticed and fewer still reported this problem, and did it delay or impact Emacs development one whit? No. Just as neither was Emacs's advancement on GNU systems affected when yours truly resurrected the port for Emacs 28. I propose to simply let the sleeping dogs lie, developers who are not concerned with the MS-DOS port modify, change, refactor, and rearchitect Emacs as they please, and we who have volunteered to devote parts of our lives to the upkeep of this port discharge this responsibility at a pace we ourselves find comfortable. As was repeatedly demonstrated, no burden is placed on any developer by code that appears to be disused and which they are not obliged to maintain. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 2024-06-23 14:04 ` Po Lu @ 2024-06-23 18:31 ` Stefan Kangas [not found] ` <s54h6djp36w.fsf@yahoo.com> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Stefan Kangas @ 2024-06-23 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacs-devel Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Over my dead body. Supporting Windows 98 is a bare necessity, at least > so long as I must print documents with a government-registered printer > from time to time, and the MS-DOS port is an interesting technical > project, absent which Emacs development will be considerably more dull > than it is now. Furthermore, it is today possible to run Emacs on an > up-to-date MS-DOS system that is 100% Free Software, as not only > FreeDOS, but the original MS-DOS, are or have apparently been released > under free licenses, and Emacs is capable of bootstrapping under at > least the former system. I understand that you feel strongly about this and enjoy working on it, but if it's true that it's easy to maintain inside of Emacs, then it should also be easy to maintain a FreeDOS/MS-DOS version of Emacs externally, if it comes to that. Since we aren't planning to make any changes, I guess we can leave it there. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <s54h6djp36w.fsf@yahoo.com>]
* Re: scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 [not found] ` <s54h6djp36w.fsf@yahoo.com> @ 2024-06-24 14:46 ` Po Lu 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Po Lu @ 2024-06-24 14:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: emacs-devel Reposting to the list, as I selected "Reply" rather than "Follow-up" by accident. Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes: > Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes: > >> I understand that you feel strongly about this and enjoy working on >> it, but if it's true that it's easy to maintain inside of Emacs, >> then >> it should also be easy to maintain a FreeDOS/MS-DOS version of Emacs >> externally, if it comes to that. > > Any external version (I read this as a euphemism for "fork") of Emacs > will be denied the advantage of the existing infrastructure and > recognition Emacs enjoys, and not only will this pall the special > appeal of the port and impede its distribution, but also alienate the > persons concerned with it, so that it is impossible to interpet a > demand to separate its development from Emacs but as a deliberate > expression of hostiliy to these developers. If only for this reason, > maintaining the DJGPP port externally is simply a non-starter. > > Not that I didn't state the practical aspects of this when the future > of the Android port was in question. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2024-06-24 14:46 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <171913140920.20405.14047614098587343624@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> [not found] ` <20240623083013.0C544C1FB5B@vcs2.savannah.gnu.org> 2024-06-23 12:49 ` scratch/windows-98 18e7a9f3d0c: Restore functionality on Windows 98 Stefan Kangas 2024-06-23 13:09 ` Po Lu 2024-06-23 13:36 ` Stefan Kangas 2024-06-23 13:48 ` Eli Zaretskii 2024-06-23 14:04 ` Po Lu 2024-06-23 18:31 ` Stefan Kangas [not found] ` <s54h6djp36w.fsf@yahoo.com> 2024-06-24 14:46 ` Po Lu
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