From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Upcoming merge of adaptive-wrap Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:59:20 -0800 Message-ID: References: <878r4eqjh8.fsf.ref@yahoo.com> <878r4eqjh8.fsf@yahoo.com> <875xzgookd.fsf@yahoo.com> <1e6f618f-5572-40e4-addb-016b467def37@gutov.dev> <87il3gn89u.fsf@yahoo.com> <87bk98n3l3.fsf@yahoo.com> <37bf6ee2-3bc0-49e8-aa55-70c77b6c5bf2@gutov.dev> <87a5orl95m.fsf@yahoo.com> <063e35f8-5920-4899-8b48-2a86c524b70e@gutov.dev> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24880"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Stephen Berman To: Dmitry Gutov , Po Lu Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Jan 28 00:00:20 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1rTret-00069f-La for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 28 Jan 2024 00:00:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rTreC-00053Y-Ht; Sat, 27 Jan 2024 17:59:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rTre9-00053I-8r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Jan 2024 17:59:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x229.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::229]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1rTrdy-0007nr-QI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Jan 2024 17:59:28 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x229.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2cf588c4dbcso5710331fa.1 for ; Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:59:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1706396360; x=1707001160; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=D7glxYrBxzdkcYx/bY8smMe6aC0pEzZxV8LQYsR73nk=; b=UaNZmYMl8Oz0i9s5o7SGvN+q+ZQFc1UZcpZnUGLINP0KI2XsTBm2XEkGY2lo9vHIrK N/mB6ghuRIjvZRDQpzogPFAKF2mKbkb6QHHaBxKYJ92nBCLZ+MBE0NmTzWhCNFLkrzvi KgyKh2uNAykWy0mIXS00YrM7YdAnJiJRrXU+S+ChsBjY2UEjF9bm0rVvhz/uYyRPbfDE jo07NhnVXbjcAOaRgmYFC1SsC8wDaoIXaB4VBAAc5fzi7/0uNkQ/QcJMUHF7v5zt0biH Hq547DeH3llbXZzk4cV0/ftXMTc5E1Ay6w7lsojjmWU6XHq/iagExpAZVB8/KGXflwrP jKWA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1706396360; x=1707001160; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=D7glxYrBxzdkcYx/bY8smMe6aC0pEzZxV8LQYsR73nk=; b=rwMqM7uIjLfE7pf4wq5hdPcBT/i/9R8lb3XSTFgMCwz2JdWTWYGYmDJldeNWsIl0oW PT+9oKBrFsQFfk4fbEgDcQBg2wCJIeNQhhEQ9+vScGlQbxIS64Ygq7550pR4+3iD0wxn AABki5yEMel9d2+b3g0nf4+OaGR3eFZH50Bg5YmQUC2ttzvQ1R0V9HJBuULUubWbFcwq H1HSBSI5m3VcvBHJf4HmMwKxpiy2S+EUfrn4PyCwV3z46MwaT59EPvK25W7YvVJkphGU laMR5zcs4RjC6qg5kqKnlqqRe3YjnJVKGF8Yeh1FA+NsRbxSiaXg1JEV7sCYRG9EtaNT TVqw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyiPNBET5evWLI05GORZ4f+RoFIXab82uzEbiZeD8qlaXJGJWeT DnplOM4wWyAgGr6zN/ydliUqLHnU6b1ZtWZXJNL8r1tHBAeFRGPzXoR8Ox4JXrLmn1WsVV0LDQ4 02E1tMC8xITv1xs/SD4QNBpTkZ/g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHpQJpv4W0tUF/Q392tFa03xZf39hmRM3co/iFe++c3KOKt9ZnJyKxK2aMXQ7ZAjqX5nkGzHXJi6C2FkYAupsc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:1550:b0:2cf:2a3e:d1aa with SMTP id y16-20020a05651c155000b002cf2a3ed1aamr3000550ljp.49.1706396360469; Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:59:20 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Sat, 27 Jan 2024 14:59:20 -0800 In-Reply-To: <063e35f8-5920-4899-8b48-2a86c524b70e@gutov.dev> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::229; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x229.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:315499 Archived-At: Dmitry Gutov writes: > On 27/01/2024 05:58, Po Lu wrote: >> Is this meant to imply that selecting "Help -> Emacs News", then typing >> `C-x d' is non-trivial? What about reading the manual, or any other of >> Emacs's built-in facilities for assisting users? > > It's an order of a magnitude more involved than 'M-x list-packages' > followed by C-s. Yeah, I don't think anyone will reach for `C-x d' in NEWS unless they already know all about these files and how they are typically installed. Most users don't know that. In fact, I doubt that more than a fraction of users even read NEWS. We have discussed this in the past, but we don't know that there is anything to be done about it. Similarly, no one reads our very fine documentation. For these reasons, we must use multiple strategies to make features more discoverable. There is no silver bullet. Therefore, I think Dmitry is right in insisting that we should continue looking for ways to make built-in features more discoverable. I propose that we continue thinking about it, and stay open to new ideas.