From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Lisp files that load cl-lib in problematical ways Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:44:12 -0700 Message-ID: References: <835y38qvlg.fsf@gnu.org> <87bkcx6eci.fsf@dataswamp.org> <83ttqnm4ti.fsf@gnu.org> <83lebyu5yx.fsf@gnu.org> <4684f43123d7dee59461@heytings.org> <835y2xo1a5.fsf@gnu.org> <4684f4312391906f6101@heytings.org> <831qdlo084.fsf@gnu.org> <83msw8n43r.fsf@gnu.org> <83bkcomf5g.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="29472"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: gregory@heytings.org, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Oct 24 17:44:35 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qvJa7-0007KF-7l for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 17:44:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvJZu-0006JG-VG; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 11:44:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvJZt-0006Iw-SV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 11:44:21 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x22c.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::22c]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qvJZn-0008DM-PZ; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 11:44:21 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2c523ac38fbso68757471fa.0; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:44:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1698162253; x=1698767053; darn=gnu.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=v9FsVEFqm+5VA0X47HP8DLfc2TXqbBolfWRCZ0BsahE=; b=VD7+kmAjvOrQ2IjtO4ixOdImfsKo+JhvEq4uJHPOiBaTg6EO4Q5LE9ztz/o1SamQn1 V5q23tpwosQYRlDzF6TmDEbPkvRtNd0+FXqRnxwRDQVx6ICLKZ+ffwtJ2SXdf+KB0gUR BOGNE3PR/vXQ0d6XhO4wAutzs4xGaBzUBjihqYFfuL1zDnwKL45KssmKLtU/MgSLd9l2 cgY4yVeYfNZ5W8O71K7trrMEa9BBjXFpaaSgIEVcjvg1Ynk+eE2F84bx1fm99W866Uk+ FBeoILdRDGqc4X1SGHZNwqBttrBr8Alqdb9AEWgDiTWALCY/knUjG05iwUBHUVnPRBnX /hgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1698162253; x=1698767053; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:mime-version:references:in-reply-to :from:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=v9FsVEFqm+5VA0X47HP8DLfc2TXqbBolfWRCZ0BsahE=; b=QeByvq1UqhKiOcsmyBGeRrruL1vC58ksOT7/6lG3N/wELZ7FYXS8ZTvZ3amn/FqvgP nwAKslnxsRrA9OvIcPGPrqwc0zppbUcJ8yZkIImS+5ISphag+hj2j+EJE//zcZ/bOTPS ePbmYDsXBDOA4jqW2P2w8IFDnIxYw8wBi3hxror9d5bDGWiHN70AogN7hD37mrnsK+FS DxRP/yxYw1mPu2xje+fkMaS13qkmWVLyCzy9pCOFQq662V36pjCgXUx2SOFjOb6p0Ovu UDlnuYkg6CqFChDgoJtFQAxruZc947gqwZ5hnXT3GjshlNRSageBcPC7C1F5T3J6nCC4 ibqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwrUWETMVTrRp18/hQniCFVeHE+imlNNT2nzdnSLm9qp2FoR5D4 GcofNGgIO/CjtSHmcjK0OPRLlgJuAXpTJL+aHLgLKtaUF48= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGeXRxdFJn1z6oM5f858oatmqd3mfqPr7azTederuMwaY13Cs9Q0Gh1M55U6Cpw/t4Kuui54TO9wAlt8p5SrBA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3c14:0:b0:2bd:1000:431d with SMTP id j20-20020a2e3c14000000b002bd1000431dmr9563388lja.10.1698162252731; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 24 Oct 2023 08:44:12 -0700 In-Reply-To: <83bkcomf5g.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2a00:1450:4864:20::22c; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-lj1-x22c.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:311803 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii writes: >>> Introduction of symbols that are not needed. >> >> Sure, but that's rather subjective. > > No, it's completely objective: we add symbols to obarray ... This part is objective, indeed. > ... that don't need to be there. But this part seems more subjective (based on a very strict definition of "need", a lot of now-preloaded things don't really need to be). >> One could also argue that it is a good thing to have certain symbols >> available immediately, for example because they are typically >> needed. > > We have autoloading to take care of that. Yes, of course. But we also have preloading. ;-)