From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: On obsoleting defcustoms Date: Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:10:01 -0500 Message-ID: References: > <83lfh743j8.fsf@gnu.org>> <53945b2b-cb3f-4823-85e1-ff8676f10161@default> <2783fdfd-d5d4-4b68-b1d9-27a7cba1efdb@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6303"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 13 04:10:57 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kdPUG-0001Vo-TJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 13 Nov 2020 04:10:56 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55906 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdPUF-0003wH-TU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:10:55 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:34750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdPTR-0003Oo-Op for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:10:05 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ed1-f52.google.com ([209.85.208.52]:38681) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kdPTQ-00083K-0j; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:10:05 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ed1-f52.google.com with SMTP id y4so3133377edy.5; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:10:03 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jxtfVuocjQFJreY9SIJAV4jZxkLl1J2HKBoHSPMLV/Y=; b=hU+68SwbSc26GCVbXLZoK+WXgtglCswc64AWWIizocP1de2ZcwVMekrfCx5TYmHxfe 0Jpk3V5lMSjZLc3+HIct8Z9xh1Tzo7jqrlgm7BGqIPs0Pa/s42RFGMdmDKgH6u290oJR KFceMReeQ7+HcWcJTbg9PCSK1Yu+hRYNavfs8zhy5MOZqEKk0w9J6UxwyCL9PdKbvlxy IN2TlvZXHDFwIAudoXv/9FHB6V8OidiBnK3aPu/bY3qdr/dJtOo67bJvtbxuVRtktMz3 A07IORQfWPIzEwx61C18xoxok6nGSzWcn7K+DSx2fdwijm4aMQ/FUEXmseeUrS7DnriO 71dg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533iFDFjYhiHjwm9lDpPqF/houedDGBAlPGLczKSxKIxZoZq1Rwk s4pTEnNYxv5kAh6n53LiQ7WurUIxltFl7KXHIJc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzAhbd2DtFaf1nW/FxejxLxs3oPNzLvUMVJNHEvJbdG59VWM6jO9A7rUYpcXsEBa859mVIgMZuoc8BwPTZpX/I= X-Received: by 2002:a50:9f61:: with SMTP id b88mr470563edf.282.1605237002261; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:10:02 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Thu, 12 Nov 2020 22:10:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <2783fdfd-d5d4-4b68-b1d9-27a7cba1efdb@default> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=209.85.208.52; envelope-from=stefankangas@gmail.com; helo=mail-ed1-f52.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/11/12 22:10:02 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -13 X-Spam_score: -1.4 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:259112 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: > Obsolete should mean still works and is still supported, > but is no longer being actively developed. Desupport > means the code supporting it is gone and we raise an > error instead. Is "desupported" defined in Emacs development? Searching online, I was only able to find that word used in reference to Oracle Database. I think we talk about "making obsolete" and "removing" a variable/function/face, and their definitions are: a) Obsolete means the byte-compiler warns about their use b) Removed means it no longer exists Note that we have many obsolete variables that are declared to be "no longer used", that is, they have no effect. You are free to argue against the status quo, of course, but that is what we have. > If it doesn't work then users deserve the runtime error. I don't think raising a run-time error is wise just because we decided that a variable should have no effect. That would mean gratuitously breaking code that might otherwise be working. It is better to allow for a grace period by raising an obsoletion warning. > I don't see how that helps users. The point IMO is that advertising features that we are planning to remove does not help users. On the contrary, we should recommend moving away from obsolete features.