bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

> when a .editorconfig file assigns a value for "indent_size" and no
> value for "tab_width", I expect "tab_width" to default to the value of
> "indent_size" as described in the documentation [1]. Unfortunately,

Yes, I consciously disagreed with the standard here.  IMO, this better
reflects Emacs's habitual behavior, so it makes more sense for Emacs users.

> Possible workarounds:
>
> 1. One can use MELPA's version of editorconfig instead of the builtin
>    one; or
> 2. One can explicitly set "tab_width" in .editorconfig

Indeed, you can already get the "missing" behavior  by setting
`indent_size` to `tab` and then setting `tab_width` to the desired
indentation size.

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Damien Cassou]

Hi Stefan,

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
>> when a .editorconfig file assigns a value for "indent_size" and no
>> value for "tab_width", I expect "tab_width" to default to the value of
>> "indent_size" as described in the documentation [1]. Unfortunately,
>
> Yes, I consciously disagreed with the standard here.  IMO, this better
> reflects Emacs's habitual behavior, so it makes more sense for Emacs users.
>
> Indeed, you can already get the "missing" behavior  by setting
> `indent_size` to `tab` and then setting `tab_width` to the desired
> indentation size.

The problem is that the .editorconfig file can be shared across users of
different editors for a given project. Emacs disagreeing with the
standard means that Emacs users will now have to explain to their
colleagues why they are introducing a change in a .editorconfig file
that the standard says is unnecessary. This is putting me, at least, in
an uncomfortable position with non-Emacs users in my team. Additionally,
if other editors disagree with the standard for other reasons, we may
quickly reach a situation where no content of .editorconfig will suit
everyone.

-- 
Damien Cassou

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm." --Winston Churchill

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 72808@debbugs.gnu.org, jaygkamat@gmail.com, 8.slashes@gmail.com
> From: Damien Cassou <damien@cassou.me>
> Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2024 22:23:14 +0200
> 
> Hi Stefan,
> 
> Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes:
> >> when a .editorconfig file assigns a value for "indent_size" and no
> >> value for "tab_width", I expect "tab_width" to default to the value of
> >> "indent_size" as described in the documentation [1]. Unfortunately,
> >
> > Yes, I consciously disagreed with the standard here.  IMO, this better
> > reflects Emacs's habitual behavior, so it makes more sense for Emacs users.
> >
> > Indeed, you can already get the "missing" behavior  by setting
> > `indent_size` to `tab` and then setting `tab_width` to the desired
> > indentation size.
> 
> The problem is that the .editorconfig file can be shared across users of
> different editors for a given project. Emacs disagreeing with the
> standard means that Emacs users will now have to explain to their
> colleagues why they are introducing a change in a .editorconfig file
> that the standard says is unnecessary. This is putting me, at least, in
> an uncomfortable position with non-Emacs users in my team. Additionally,
> if other editors disagree with the standard for other reasons, we may
> quickly reach a situation where no content of .editorconfig will suit
> everyone.

Stefan, any further comments, or should we close this as wontfix?

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

>> The problem is that the .editorconfig file can be shared across users of
>> different editors for a given project. Emacs disagreeing with the
>> standard means that Emacs users will now have to explain to their
>> colleagues why they are introducing a change in a .editorconfig file
>> that the standard says is unnecessary. This is putting me, at least, in
>> an uncomfortable position with non-Emacs users in my team. Additionally,
>> if other editors disagree with the standard for other reasons, we may
>> quickly reach a situation where no content of .editorconfig will suit
>> everyone.
> Stefan, any further comments, or should we close this as wontfix?

I think Damien's argument makes a lot of sense.
I think mine makes sense as well.
I can't really judge which one will work out more often right, but as
the writer of the code I decided to try out my choice.

But I don't have a really strong opinion about it (I do have a strong
opinion that the EditorConfig standard's choice is wrong, but not
whether we should follow it or not): if you think Damien's preference is
better for Emacs, I'm fine to make the change.

Otherwise, I suggest we leave it like that for Emacs-30 and see how
things turn out.


        Stefan

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Eli Zaretskii]

tags 72808 wontfix
close 72808
thanks

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Damien Cassou <damien@cassou.me>,  72808@debbugs.gnu.org,
>   jaygkamat@gmail.com,  8.slashes@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 08 Sep 2024 07:25:17 -0400
> 
> >> The problem is that the .editorconfig file can be shared across users of
> >> different editors for a given project. Emacs disagreeing with the
> >> standard means that Emacs users will now have to explain to their
> >> colleagues why they are introducing a change in a .editorconfig file
> >> that the standard says is unnecessary. This is putting me, at least, in
> >> an uncomfortable position with non-Emacs users in my team. Additionally,
> >> if other editors disagree with the standard for other reasons, we may
> >> quickly reach a situation where no content of .editorconfig will suit
> >> everyone.
> > Stefan, any further comments, or should we close this as wontfix?
> 
> I think Damien's argument makes a lot of sense.
> I think mine makes sense as well.
> I can't really judge which one will work out more often right, but as
> the writer of the code I decided to try out my choice.
> 
> But I don't have a really strong opinion about it (I do have a strong
> opinion that the EditorConfig standard's choice is wrong, but not
> whether we should follow it or not): if you think Damien's preference is
> better for Emacs, I'm fine to make the change.
> 
> Otherwise, I suggest we leave it like that for Emacs-30 and see how
> things turn out.

I'm okay with closing this as wontfix.  Let's see if we have more
complaints like this.

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Stefan Kangas]

[Resending after unarchiving the bug.]

Damien Cassou <damien@cassou.me> writes:

> The problem is that the .editorconfig file can be shared across users of
> different editors for a given project. Emacs disagreeing with the
> standard means that Emacs users will now have to explain to their
> colleagues why they are introducing a change in a .editorconfig file
> that the standard says is unnecessary. This is putting me, at least, in
> an uncomfortable position with non-Emacs users in my team. Additionally,
> if other editors disagree with the standard for other reasons, we may
> quickly reach a situation where no content of .editorconfig will suit
> everyone.

I agree, FWIW.

This makes our .editorconfig support less useful than it could be.  The
point, to my mind at least, is exactly that users *shouldn't* have to do
any extra work to get the right settings when opening a new project.  If
it has a correct .editorconfig file, everything should Just Work (TM).

IOW, the user experience I prefer is not "new project, so now you have
to send yet another .editorconfig patch".  At $WORK, for example, this
is complicated by things like which team maintains a given repository,
how amenable they are likely to be to a seemingly redundant patch to
improve support for Emacs, etc.  In all likelihood, I will just end up
creating .dir-locals.el files instead, to avoid the discussion.

If we insist on this, how about adding an option to turn the
incompatible behaviour off?

bug#72808: 30.0.90; editorconfig doesn't set tab_width to a default value

[Stefan Monnier via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

forcemerge 72808 72790
thanks

>> The problem is that the .editorconfig file can be shared across users of
>> different editors for a given project. Emacs disagreeing with the
>> standard means that Emacs users will now have to explain to their
>> colleagues why they are introducing a change in a .editorconfig file
>> that the standard says is unnecessary. This is putting me, at least, in
>> an uncomfortable position with non-Emacs users in my team. Additionally,
>> if other editors disagree with the standard for other reasons, we may
>> quickly reach a situation where no content of .editorconfig will suit
>> everyone.
>
> I agree, FWIW.
>
> This makes our .editorconfig support less useful than it could be.  The
> point, to my mind at least, is exactly that users *shouldn't* have to do
> any extra work to get the right settings when opening a new project.  If
> it has a correct .editorconfig file, everything should Just Work (TM).
>
> IOW, the user experience I prefer is not "new project, so now you have
> to send yet another .editorconfig patch".  At $WORK, for example, this
> is complicated by things like which team maintains a given repository,
> how amenable they are likely to be to a seemingly redundant patch to
> improve support for Emacs, etc.  In all likelihood, I will just end up
> creating .dir-locals.el files instead, to avoid the discussion.
>
> If we insist on this, how about adding an option to turn the
> incompatible behaviour off?

Note that in response to the very similar request in bug#73991 (where
I also point out more reasons why I think the EditorConfig spec is just
poorly thought out in this respect), I (reluctantly🙂) installed in
`emacs-30` a patch which should make Emacs behave like Damien expects
for the `.editorconfig` file he provided.


        Stefan