From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Eduardo Ochs Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre Date: Thu, 28 May 2020 02:51:16 -0300 Message-ID: References: <5230692c-c665-a330-7a12-e59fa25d97dd@gmail.com> <70bb51fd-447d-928c-4d69-1c9673a44471@online.de> <871rnnvmdx.fsf@red-bean.com> <87pnb7sira.fsf@red-bean.com> <87lflcg0k9.fsf@red-bean.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="77297"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" To: Karl Fogel , Emacs developers Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 28 07:52:23 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jeBSo-000K0Q-Mx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 07:52:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37262 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeBSn-00068M-PJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 01:52:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37492) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeBS1-0004gH-O2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 01:51:33 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-x436.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::436]:46931) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jeBS0-0001pb-3y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 28 May 2020 01:51:33 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-x436.google.com with SMTP id 131so4559774pfv.13 for ; Wed, 27 May 2020 22:51:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qoi9rQUi8KGEwgNNUV/h0oTD80T9t3afpy2Pg9mWfD4=; b=iHuKZD5wgirLiR+YrWg9pePhJtOlzMfC5SSPi0/wmiUgIDShMfpOqlYl/4OqfMEtKS 8tGcJ6uG15Jy63tnTOVkwhGw3EaFxQel3X/W6bQUQ/pD9rib6aIjDiW3QVtSgAbCu/l7 E4Oxj+6tJjN0KHnzVf7Bt3hx96Mfv4qy90dd0ZqGd2mvimOFJLSNLlk13Hj+u7CaGGfW DOn1BIg0i6fct6e4BbSEcpYQQ4KwDuE8q8bWeo9tsMyh7O3D8b3bZbVZE9LNrVCiFUZ6 SpRsGP6ZnOgFeRq/ISHINd+cZGY0JCmF3alN5o9HNNQZkw1xbIbzdD/79XfiNugYelP7 QFGQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qoi9rQUi8KGEwgNNUV/h0oTD80T9t3afpy2Pg9mWfD4=; b=otNGYGq1MqeXC8iVxhwi6wPsGJwskIgQL4Mw8hQk7IsEOYVdId4/jjgpt8YvJ/XF4k 0pmdV+G9RyQgOydjiwdCOfd2PHD/z7a/yPOzLLr10HEo/tesHr5mH3MF+RmASe2qk8ax MTyoj6rZzvJiGuajK0nT+fc8YtORebKiiI7IXPnEZYwjCJUh417I89tMuxiDH/Tz4UWd uX6SmfE5TYPUdBpT/r9BeDzx1s+aRHEE4o/RXLY1uGdl1j43qJmn/BlR+HYigS6kiTna hlOEmoYfVPUaQKh9VBv8+9MN1rLmWMH5B5lxx3naLDOavtkNZRmfxCwhsx4Kv2Df45ql S3Zw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531xZihZ/725/+qHUw2mRc7jT4N0ZjqHu0Z5vfTShpB6KWYHdq74 vDRzR7WAuvjbeQ2IrD2p0ZBJQwICqrvkTtombzU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyimAkBr+TSJqA9hcmyFAtP2Iuy28iXHvxp/a7Eo5Ha898m2uNGv9ePX1EdxykUApGc7iyOm0img9fxWBv7+OQ= X-Received: by 2002:a63:3545:: with SMTP id c66mr1303893pga.82.1590645089895; Wed, 27 May 2020 22:51:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87lflcg0k9.fsf@red-bean.com> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::436; envelope-from=eduardoochs@gmail.com; helo=mail-pf1-x436.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=_AUTOLEARN X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:251535 Archived-At: Maybe we should experiment with changing the line in the startup screen that says To quit a partially entered command, type Control-g. to make it also mention , and also add links to these nodes of the Emacs Manual... (info "(emacs)Quitting") (info "(emacs)Basic Undo") I just noticed that I don't know where the manual explains that Emacs makes very hard for users to lose files or text with a single wrong keystroke. When I learned GNU/Linux it was somehow obvious that an editor that allowed that would be considered very rude - but I checked the definiton of "rude" in the Jargon Dictionary with "dict rude" and it says just this: rude adj. 1. (of a program) Badly written. 2. Functionally poor, e.g., a program that is very difficult to use because of gratuitously poor (random?) design decisions. Oppose {cuspy}. 3. Anything that manipulates a shared resource without regard for its other users in such a way as to cause a (non-fatal) problem. Examples: programs that change tty modes without resetting them on exit, or windowing programs that keep forcing themselves to the top of the window stack. which means that I'm misremembering things. Here's one easy way (untested!) to experiment with that. If you live with someone who is learning Emacs, change the function `fancy-startup-tail' in the file startup.el in the person's computer and explain to her that you are trying to get a better startup screen and would like her to test it, stick a post-it to her screen or table or whatever that says "M-x fancy-startup-screen", and tell her to go back to the modified startup screen whenever she's lost. I can't test that because of the quarantine and because I live alone with Doggy. Cheers, Eduardo Ochs http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html On Thu, 28 May 2020 at 01:13, Karl Fogel wrote: > > Sometimes they know that, but it's still stressful for them to have > to do it. They don't like the sensation of getting into state > they don't understand, and then having to type a magical quit-key to > get out of that state. It makes them apprehensive about even > using the editor -- they feel like they got bitten. > > (...) > > I don't think the issue is ignorance about C-g. It's that people > have a relationship with software interfaces in which they're not > accustomed to being bitten. Even when the bite draws no blood, > they still don't like the feeling. > > I can see directly that they don't like the feeling, that it's > upsetting to them. I conjecture that part of the reason is that > even if they quickly ascertain that everything's all right this > time, they still have a (rational) fear that the next time the bite > might actually cause harm -- e.g., that maybe they'll lose a file, > or accidentally rename something, or that edits that they don't know > about will be accidentally made somewhere. > > I haven't actually asked new users if that's their worry, but on the > now-rare occasions when Emacs bites me, I worry about such things. > Also, I've been using Emacs long enough to know that most likely > nothing harmful happened, and that if I patiently unwind the state > I'll be able to figure it all out. A newcomer does not have that > comfort at first, and they can only acquire it through sustained > exposure to the editor.