From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: On language-dependent defaults for character-folding Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:50:18 +0100 Message-ID: References: <838u2hu6aq.fsf@gnu.org> <871t899tde.fsf@gnus.org> <83y4ahru04.fsf@gnu.org> <83fuwproyf.fsf@gnu.org> <837fi0sz29.fsf@gnu.org> <83egc8qzjh.fsf@gnu.org> <87egc7evu3.fsf@gnus.org> <83io1jpt4u.fsf@gnu.org> <87povqhj25.fsf@gnus.org> <87povqe5tr.fsf@gnus.org> <87ziuta4l4.fsf@gnus.org> <8360xhmn3a.fsf@gnu.org> <87y4adxuq4.fsf@gnus.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1456213829 28352 80.91.229.3 (23 Feb 2016 07:50:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 23 Feb 2016 07:50:29 +0000 (UTC) To: John Wiegley , Lars Ingebrigtsen , Eli Zaretskii , lokedhs@gmail.com, "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Feb 23 08:50:28 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aY7jl-0000x1-HZ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 08:50:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54638 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aY7jk-0007Ze-WA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 02:50:25 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:57291) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aY7jh-0007ZV-PN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 02:50:22 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aY7jg-00026t-Mz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 02:50:21 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]:33504) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aY7jg-00026o-Hw; Tue, 23 Feb 2016 02:50:20 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-vk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k196so155083413vka.0; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:50:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vRtUKc/TGDDWJ6nzC3/7cJl5SAR8w7kbQ/ycEpFDAf0=; b=mRTmZIEdR7GDcMgdC9bSDPbMOXdeGRHXSMLb4j2wQoMR1Eaffhy1ilIl93n05o0zL2 QW3MQwIrSOrc2EdDK/ohiQEinmSeEhW5KL1JevGtnvXyHq0IthEntCGcgNVFVlmkhW6y s9tLtc9tP3BtKd7TyY3h5RF8JDIdCTTEPbuINCtuIElQgSuRgbmR6h1y/g+dDsuejd6+ U3cbWIxjJPiLPpKaJQhTpWUY9/IR0hi2+//OD9Yo3GYJI4OLLkWobP7XpwB4MR68awGA Guv6fJ7U5IyTL0R20WAeA9R67ZDKcKVQBCm66nXjv3MittpQAzmP1t/t6KURhhDa5+Y9 MiKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=vRtUKc/TGDDWJ6nzC3/7cJl5SAR8w7kbQ/ycEpFDAf0=; b=ZeARQL99LJ+VyqgATr705NXBwGA4ROGzR/gp1wMOvNtnevFRfD1DO20l/hcq1mUJxy 7GjaPJosl8bsMJtwK0yqbE5vcDOwEq4c4PG/4ry+SgAC69BTI3Gj4ZTpe9cOd+QjxYEz TdWxXmjf//z5RuWAxocLB4yHNRdzSFdUeaTs5HfIizNqJDYGlhiekqxi77fUtAZAjXS6 JEp36o+OaNiOG7h6O2aMOQL0MghkQAoLtJIv9Op+9oYpseb/6C0s+6q/qlDxxCG7BsMO QCi1OSnF0Zj7wscvCHlgCmjLsmqFilcpma8mvKPYuOprASdRt8Tyq2Sh1kbUFRRxwRIS 8QBA== X-Gm-Message-State: AG10YORAFgUQ4F7syJzSMNBrYfPP4iELMIgDSGc3b7Sd6P7JkG6BHtEB/PgQRCln6ntNoRqBB8q4SsUCBgXWEg== X-Received: by 10.31.128.82 with SMTP id b79mr26816058vkd.47.1456213819521; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:50:19 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.31.15.197 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Feb 2016 23:50:18 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200533 Archived-At: 2016-02-22 19:58 GMT+01:00 John Wiegley : > I'm worried that this very long discussion on character-folding is going > nowhere. We're over 200 messages now, and it seems that the same argument= s are > being repeated about what does and does not constitute a letter to be fol= ded. > Or maybe my eyes glazed over, and that's what I think I'm seeing... I would have liked a more focused discussion on the most pressing issue, namely what to do regarding this in the upcoming release which is currently in pretest. Therefore I have avoided discussion on how to make the folding better in the future, even though I have my views on details on the ideal way to handle o vs =C3=B6 vs =C3=B8, or how useful collation rules are, or how useful a user's locale settings are, etc. Artur had an interesting post on how he plans to make it better which I'd like to comment on someday, but won't for the time being, because it just detracts. All of this is interesting, but the planned substantial improvements in character folding will not be in the next released version, so none of those details matter and it's essentially just a question of a default setting of off or on for the feature as it currently stands. I think it has been shown without doubt that the feature as it currently stands will lead to many disappointed users. As Artur has written: > It's important that the default be helpful, > without appearing to be "buggy" to unsuspecting users. That is the view of what I understand to be the main developer of this feature, who tried to set the default to off. I think this should have been settled then, and think that Eli's view that it can be decided later is just wrong. Pretests should test what we intend to ship. Saying that it can be changed at the last moment just invites some error in the last-minute, for example that someone forgets to update the documentation that goes along with it. No more data is needed for this decision. (More data and more discussion may be needed for finding the best way forward after that, but that is something else.)