From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Starb=E4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Apologia for bzr Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 15:10:29 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b339715f989f104ef8a2b9e X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389276642 22129 80.91.229.3 (9 Jan 2014 14:10:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 14:10:42 +0000 (UTC) To: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 09 15:10:47 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1GJm-0002xh-QQ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 15:10:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52144 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1GJl-00052x-DU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:10:41 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40079) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1GJd-00052n-5U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:10:34 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1GJb-0001An-Hk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:10:32 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-x236.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236]:53000) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1GJb-0001Aa-4s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:10:31 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-f54.google.com with SMTP id kl14so3323250pab.41 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 06:10:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type; bh=BLEllKHN0gZPUIFEyUaaW+w4rOBhCTZrgRbvZlXXaPQ=; b=AwwzXCkbyama5X3uAH9wUwXJfw/pbaKWbLpY0BXR3TG/lf26jg9O/+1Q67WmctRFKv SmStSLucX619+iiQZJAdKP77QBDvgtPTl9Xom1XOhD1fUX3rvmikAcT1d3yQT32FM+/o lCCSAUNDz0g3zSlhjroUXG9MWnm8U26dqetjsPfoHCRgAUJGFLu6wG8Sm+zzRWmV8nht QFuJMZE3T2vcnzJk2Vd3zFrujQJzkVVpint9gGGuIapbKbLO8enPrFit/tO/4G4CWGvY //F3jACwfNpVtASpgMyOQa6lrYlm7LrOSGW/6RWAOS08CEXDRJj25GWlbwfyzA++Altr /FUQ== X-Received: by 10.68.241.234 with SMTP id wl10mr3802086pbc.121.1389276629137; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 06:10:29 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.70.37.104 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 06:10:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: Fmi8VuaPCnbpFZtIFLsNOT6II2E X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c03::236 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167909 Archived-At: --047d7b339715f989f104ef8a2b9e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > > This said, the "what you call a window is called a frame" is not > nearly > > as problematic as "what we call window is not what you think", so > maybe > > renaming "window" to "pane" would get us most of the benefit. > > I think you're right there. If we just get rid of the word > "window", I think that'll fix most confusions. "Pane" and "frame" > are more "technical" terms, and people aren't as apt to make > assumptions about what they mean. > > +1 to switching from "window", and leave it for a later time to decide when we're ready to take the next step. That will certainly be a long time from now, but the long run is what counts the most. And also there is a significant gain already from step 1. Aren't we underestimating users's natural ability to abstract terms and > concepts? For the average person the "confusion" regarding windows will > least for no more than two minutes, if ever, given that both the > tutorial and the manual explain what a window is... > > Users *can* cope, but they have reason to choose not to do that. This is one of several things where beginning users can get the impression that Emacs is not for them because it's weird. If they in just the first half hour of using Emacs meet several such things they may conclude that working with Emacs will continue to be like this; now and then it will turn out that it doesn't work as "expected" and that there are new names for everything, etc. Why not use That Other Editor that some other people suggested instead? --047d7b339715f989f104ef8a2b9e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 =A0 > This said, the "what you call a window is called a frame&= quot; is not nearly
=A0 =A0 > as problematic as "what we call window is not what you th= ink", so maybe
=A0 =A0 > renaming "window" to "pane" would get us m= ost of the benefit.

=A0 =A0 I think you're right there. =A0If we just get rid of the word =A0 =A0 "window", I think that'll fix most confusions. =A0&qu= ot;Pane" and "frame"
=A0 =A0 are more "technical" terms, and people aren't as apt = to make
=A0 =A0 assumptions about what they mean.


+1 to switching from "windo= w", and leave it for a later time to decide when we're ready to ta= ke the next step. That will certainly be a long time from now, but the long= run is what counts the most. And also there is a significant gain already = from step 1.

Aren't we underestimating users's natural ability to abstract= terms and
concepts? =A0For the average person the "confusion" regarding win= dows will
least for no more than two minutes, if ever, given that both the
tutorial and the manual explain what a window is...


Users *can* cope, but they have reason= to choose not to do that. This is one of several things where beginning us= ers can get the impression that Emacs is not for them because it's weir= d.=A0 If they in just the first half hour of using Emacs meet several such = things they may conclude that working with Emacs will continue to be like t= his; now and then it will turn out that it doesn't work as "expect= ed" and that there are new names for everything, etc. Why not use That= Other Editor that some other people suggested instead?

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