From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: lax matching is not a great default behavior Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:33:14 +0100 Message-ID: References: <837fl2qzs2.fsf@gnu.org> <83610ikvto.fsf@gnu.org> <83bna6ipn7.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1449221611 7566 80.91.229.3 (4 Dec 2015 09:33:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 09:33:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: jwiegley@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, Drew Adams , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Dec 04 10:33:25 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a4mk1-0007T1-3T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 10:33:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39596 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4mk0-00069c-EH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 04:33:24 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:52634) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4mjv-00066D-Kv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 04:33:20 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4mju-0004Uw-Is for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 04:33:19 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-vk0-x232.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232]:36246) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a4mjr-0004Tz-Fc; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 04:33:15 -0500 Original-Received: by vkay187 with SMTP id y187so61975019vka.3; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 01:33:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=U9YvNOIPAophFouJN5LHQjTnOYrWZgHqboRguttoZi0=; b=jafWF969MjI49rTS+zxcPFHbdA9xf7ePYOxnOmHgiYOf+aFVVdkGq6JTVjRwzM0Bci DpGodbnLbqlQp9cKBdmH+b/iFMZ4bsr6Q45NU8bYRmQdo9AssmvUAF00LTHL5P3Y3E7f vDI9reZQ8NIS9ntGwGajjMSyCZGS5h+MTTes0/XKl4wG1Lx/2PADW4CEGCbSRCGMc5qw wR0pSJYckXAv9DDx+MIiCjvjv4/Ud5QRVVRE9CIsv+57PjjzN9R7UHa96nPUvKl4ewV3 x9M59jnFPOFcgrif1tgIwznLBqBKLk2qtJ8JV0fuERM1EzKhx+kS/2U9HEq6AFR8J2IL 8AbQ== X-Received: by 10.31.159.21 with SMTP id i21mr9444618vke.55.1449221595137; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 01:33:15 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.31.54.197 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Dec 2015 01:33:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83bna6ipn7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Google-Sender-Auth: BjnUK8Fp8rQ0bn9un9SatXEjnR8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:195863 Archived-At: >> > If we are afraid users will hate this default, we can turn it off in >> > v25.1 and consider making it the default later. >> >> That would be good > > I see no real reasons yet for such a decision. Character folding was > introduced with the explicit goal of giving users what the other > text-editing and word-processing environments provide, what they > therefore are expected to expect. To revert that decision will take > more than just "I think it's wrong" kind of posts. I didn't follow its creation, but I don't think users generally expect that (yet). (I just checked searches in Gedit and Firefox where there were no such features, at least not in the versions that are standard in my operating system distribution.) Not that I think that matters a lot. I think a good reason to introduce character folding is because it's a good feature, simple as that. But it needs to tried out more and get more feedback from different locales before made into the default. I may have missed something, but I have not read a single "I think it's wrong" post. I've read that making the feature available to users first will make it possible to have a poll before changing a default that is a massive change, and I've read my own examples of how the American-centered assumptions are just wrong in some situations. There is probably more feedback of a similar kind. By enabling this feature it will be possible to get that feedback, without the outcry that comes with changing the default. By ironing out the wrinkles this will be a welcome change when the default later is changed. You have to realize that this is a *massive* change, even though it may not feel so for someone who almost only writes in English. >> Should it be "Ignore accents for search"? > > No, because ignoring accents is just a small part of character > folding. Please take a look at character-fold.el for the details. I know, but it has to be called something. Do you have a better suggestion? >> > Alternatively, we >> > could quickly release Emacs 25.2 with character folding turned off if >> > we see an outcry. But polling at this time will not be efficient, >> > IMO. >> >> Not at all as good! To "quickly release" something doesn't mean that >> it is a quick change for users, who may keep using that version for a >> long time. > > If they are annoyed by a feature, they will upgrade quickly, I think. That kind of user will rather change their options themselves. I'm not primarily talking about people installing Emacs themselves, but those who use a version their system adminstrator or the OS distribution provider installed for them.