From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Questions about isearch Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:50:26 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83lh9lx6oi.fsf@gnu.org> <83a8q1x1cn.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9k74pkw.fsf@gmail.com> <83bnafse4f.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1448643048 5517 80.91.229.3 (27 Nov 2015 16:50:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Nov 2015 16:50:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Artur Malabarba , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 27 17:50:45 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1a2MEM-0000Wp-U1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 17:50:43 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57552 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a2MEK-0001O1-Nt for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:50:40 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60232) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a2MED-0001Nr-Er for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:50:34 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a2MEC-0006bc-8O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:50:33 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-vk0-x230.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c05::230]:34128) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1a2ME7-0006b2-7F; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 11:50:27 -0500 Original-Received: by vkbs1 with SMTP id s1so71545795vkb.1; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lDZbrn26UGU9v4wEwawFIxZdatjgdunaBo9uHRhpH7M=; b=ByMuk9gZ7bohQoUy/z3Zve8AKbbLtRmKw24DfbF6prhAGqo8R4whwSWzOxsl2oTfqA I1LOAOfjgVfHyWIpWCRhbNlTl2MkScjL9l4mBm/GcvKet/lpP8H5ciTu+DQtopvaCuLt 11luMqno4BtqcHDbPLTvi5MsGqwA2KroRvwnDLtfvZCpe0UUHEVcU+KgxLhfTIkEg9+h geJ0zR6ljZYm0wU8QAzpLrddJ3hKn+9DfZNZczoyuscFspKuxjYpvvRkm8y66plvwklN JBaIClL4xm/R2IF5A3pcrTGJt3jacDjgaXG28p+4YgREW3U8Vph2IFOnowg0rI7ZhzcD AQeg== X-Received: by 10.31.180.205 with SMTP id d196mr40400673vkf.146.1448643026819; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.31.54.197 with HTTP; Fri, 27 Nov 2015 08:50:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <83bnafse4f.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c05::230 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:195385 Archived-At: Oh, I have so many thoughts about this, but I'll stick to the character folding for now, which is why language setting in Emacs has become a lot more urgent now than it has been during the previous years I have wished for this. As I wrote before, =C3=85=C3=84=C3=96 are really separate letters in Swedis= h, just as separate from A and O as U is from V, or I is from J. I wrote: > To have a search for > "varpa" in a Swedish text find "v=C3=A4rpa" or "varp=C3=A5" would be just= wrong. > It would give a strong impression of this being an American program > not meant to be used for Swedish. One answer I got was that it's possible to turn this off. Yes, it is, but defaults are important for what impression you give. I haven't been active on the list for some time, but when I have expressed opinions on Emacs here before it has often been not thinking about myself, but thinking about the students that I teach Emacs, so that *I* can change settings is not enough for my consideration. Also character folding is a great feature! I don't want to turn it off! It's just that it's bad to fold characters that are in no way seen as variants but totally different letters. There are few languages using Latin letters where it is like that, so any universal poll will say that this isn't a big problem. (For example Germans also use =C3=84 and =C3=96, but much more seen as A-with-Um= laut than as something separate.) But to see how this will be received here, imagine that Emacs came from the Roman empire. (The empire never ended!) Of course we all know some Latin, so we have no problems with the menus and help texts being in Latin, even though we often use it for editing texts in other languages, like English. Now there's a new version with a new feature character folding, and when you (an American user) try to use the new version of Emacs you happen to edit a text Can dualism still be considered valid? You do a C-s to position yourself at "valid" there, but to your surprise and irritation you have to type all five letters, because still at "vali" you are stuck in "dualism" because those imperialistic Romans think that U and V are the "same" letter. That's just wrong. So what is the right way out? A possibility to set buffer language says I. Eli says that a buffer language is not enough: Eli: > This discussion started from Isearch, so the > example which underlines the issues is searching for a string with > character-folding enabled -- this should automatically apply > language-specific rules when it hits a possible match in the Turkish > portion, then switch back to English when the match is in the English > part. I don't agree, and see this as an important difference between the language of a segment and the language of a document (which I would write a lot more about if I didn't try to stick just to the character folding issue now). If you are a non-Swede looking at a text including : Eli Heckscher referred to this in his "Varp=C3=A5 beror det att n=C3=A5g= ra : m=C3=A4nniskor =C3=A4r rika och andra fattiga?" from 1913. and do an Isearch for "varpa" with accent folding on, you *should* find that "Varp=C3=A5". You see the text with some "Varpa" with some diacretical mark, of course you should find it with that search. You can't be expected to know about Swedish preferences just because there happens to be a short text fragment in Swedish in the text.