From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Per_Starb=E4ck?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs terminology (not again!?) [was: Apologia for bzr] Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 18:27:04 +0100 Message-ID: References: <877gact76s.fsf@gnu.org> <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e89a8ff1c6b20fe03c04ef8cebd3 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1389288429 13721 80.91.229.3 (9 Jan 2014 17:27:09 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2014 17:27:09 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Drew Adams To: "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 09 18:27:18 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1W1JNz-0004ys-Oe for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 18:27:15 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53262 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1JNz-0001EL-9m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:27:15 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36717) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1JNu-0001Ca-2r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:27:11 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1JNr-0005AY-26 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:27:10 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pb0-x22a.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a]:63294) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1W1JNq-0005AM-Iz for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 12:27:07 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pb0-f42.google.com with SMTP id uo5so3300282pbc.29 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:27:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9CdduVk24uUvb31zVrSkWmNAsnccV8VDQ6NWiLaQuLg=; b=Mor3KTaAzQLBMeHhO5tALVpyzNj57CqFQY6rtGuggHzLBRp8P8soxkaP0yfnD/MxvX xV+luFcbDE69lujGuN1NISgiwFQ4s2AT5oU5JBNK1OngKVAl0Q0WYDtaYTeIWI497yhS 3gNt9aWjO+MWwfr6e9HD3I/0NhrjW5v7d1gJyCcldDpzqOjmp5p95tbyevTGf+lUki9p w7qQaXHrCsx4msVQEDp2mPrNpmAwEQ7Fc+CzyzVHNCTqqw0wsWIbMe8tIYuF6JlPPihe hwZxNcPYuqHXbYxGQtoYZ6qTvMldvJx8doUnkxYYlCNcIRN1jkYrFieg6pM7PQ/MoY9x 51MA== X-Received: by 10.68.211.1 with SMTP id my1mr5088258pbc.55.1389288424986; Thu, 09 Jan 2014 09:27:04 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.70.37.104 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:27:04 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <34c8c13b-c5c6-4e5a-9248-b09d5d1936da@default> X-Google-Sender-Auth: bxzZwDM1OFr6r3hX8Vre3bVb0k8 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400e:c01::22a X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:167945 Archived-At: --e89a8ff1c6b20fe03c04ef8cebd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 2014/1/9 Drew Adams > > Then you are talking about another problem than I am. Functionality (and > > attitudes) that turn away those people is indeed a problem for Emacs. > > Are you sure that turning away "those people" is a problem for Emacs? > > Yes. Any attitude of "it should be hard to learn because the good people can learn things that are hard to learn" is just contraproductive. > >> (And _you_ are not using That Other Editor why? Did you perhaps > >> spend more than 1/2 hour learning This Old Editor?) > > > > This seems irrelevant to me. What is your point? > > Emacs _is_ a better mousetrap. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_a_better_mousetrap,_and_the_world_will_beat_a_path_to_your_door > > To really appreciate it, some people, if not most, need to give it more > than 1/2 hour, before jumping to the conclusion that it is not worth > their spending more time with it. As Richard put it, "Learning Emacs is > never going to be easy." Or as I said: > > Learning Emacs is learning something new and different - it is not > your momma's editor. And it rightfully has its own terminology. > Those are not comparable quotes at all. Richard wants Emacs to be easier to learn for beginners, and I doubt he would write something like your momma quote. Emacs is the text editor for a GNU system. It shouldn't need some other text editor for "your momma" besides it, but have Emacs be the program used for any user who need plain text editing. That Gnome had to create a new text editor to be the default editor for Gnome was a *big* setback for Emacs. To really appreciate any text editor takes time. > "Those people" who don't feel they need to bother - well, they will > either get it later, by way of others, or they will not. Tant pis. > That works only if your goal is this elite Emacs. The "right" users will find it eventually anyway. Not all people have that idea about Emacs. > But Emacs being "weird" because it uses the word "window" differently - > that's another thing. I have never encountered a newbie taking Emacs > for a test drive who could not understand, when told what an Emacs > window is. Have you? > > That's rehashing. It's not about understanding. It's about what impression you make. > > Other things being equal, of course we want to make things easy to learn. > Of course we do not want to throw up unnecessary obstacles. Gratuitous > differences in terminology for identical things should be dealt with - > and they generally are. > So why do you object when people want to deal with this particular gratuitous difference in terminology? The proposed window->pane change doesn't affect other stuff. Yes, an Emacs "buffer" for instance is an Emacs concept that you have to learn because it's different from what you've used elsewhere, but that's not part of this at all. > That kind of hand-holding encouragement is fine. But there is no reason > to underestimate potential users. Some people will give up without > giving Emacs a chance. So what? Others will not - just as you did not. > Why suppose that potential Emacs users are less patient or curious or > intelligent than we are? > My using Emacs is irrelevant. One reason is that I learned (Teco) Emacs in the 1980s, when expectations on how to learn programs were very different from now, and with not really any other text editors to choose from anyway. Another is that the main reason I'm using (GNU) Emacs now is that it's the editor of the GNU system. If GNU had gone with something else I would probably have started using that instead, even though that would have been a much bigger transition than going from one Emacs to another. --e89a8ff1c6b20fe03c04ef8cebd3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
2014= /1/9 Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
> Then you are talking about another problem than I am. =A0Functionality= (and
> attitudes) that turn away those people is indeed a problem for Emacs.<= br>
Are you sure that turning away "those people" is a problem = for Emacs?


Yes. Any attit= ude of "it should be hard to learn because the good people can learn t= hings that are hard to learn" is just contraproductive.
=A0
>> (And _you_ are not using That Other Editor why? =A0Did you perhaps=
>> spend more than 1/2 hour learning This Old Editor?)
>
> This seems irrelevant to me. What is your point?

Emacs _is_ a better mousetrap.
http://en.wikipedia.o= rg/wiki/Build_a_better_mousetrap,_and_the_world_will_beat_a_path_to_your_do= or

To really appreciate it, some people, if not most, need to give it more
than 1/2 hour, before jumping to the conclusion that it is not worth
their spending more time with it. =A0As Richard put it, "Learning Emac= s is
never going to be easy." =A0Or as I said:

=A0 Learning Emacs is learning something new and different - it is not
=A0 your momma's editor. =A0And it rightfully has its own termino= logy.

Those are not comparab= le quotes at all. Richard wants Emacs to be easier to learn for beginners, = and I doubt he would write something like your momma quote. Emacs is the te= xt editor for a GNU system. It shouldn't need some other text editor fo= r "your momma" besides it, but have Emacs be the program used for= any user who need plain text editing. That Gnome had to create a new text = editor to be the default editor for Gnome was a *big* setback for Emacs.
To really appreciate any text editor takes time.


"Those people" who don't feel they need to bother - well, the= y will
either get it later, by way of others, or they will not. =A0Tant pis.

That works only if your goal is this elite E= macs. The "right" users will find it eventually anyway. Not all p= eople have that idea about Emacs.


But Emacs being "weird" because it uses the word "window&quo= t; differently -
that's another thing. =A0I have never encountered a newbie taking Emacs=
for a test drive who could not understand, when told what an Emacs
window is. =A0Have you?


That's rehashing. It's not abo= ut understanding. It's about what impression you make.
= =A0

Other things being equal, of course we want to make things easy to learn. Of course we do not want to throw up unnecessary obstacles. =A0Gratuitous differences in terminology for identical things should be dealt with -
and they generally are.

So why do you o= bject when people want to deal with this particular gratuitous difference i= n terminology? The proposed window->pane change doesn't affect other= stuff. Yes, an Emacs "buffer" for instance is an Emacs concept t= hat you have to learn because it's different from what you've used = elsewhere, but that's not part of this at all.
=A0
That kind of hand-holding encouragement is fine. =A0But there is no reason<= br> to underestimate potential users. =A0Some people will give up without
giving Emacs a chance. =A0So what? =A0Others will not - just as you did not= .
Why suppose that potential Emacs users are less patient or curious or
intelligent than we are?

My using Emacs= is irrelevant. One reason is that I learned (Teco) Emacs in the 1980s, whe= n expectations on how to learn programs were very different from now, and w= ith not really any other text editors to choose from anyway. Another is tha= t the main reason I'm using (GNU) Emacs now is that it's the editor= of the GNU system. If GNU had gone with something else I would probably ha= ve started using that instead, even though that would have been a much bigg= er transition than going from one Emacs to another.


=A0

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