From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "T.V. Raman" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs as word processor / Text Properties Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:50:11 -0800 Message-ID: References: <87vbzqfgd6.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83vbzkcx20.fsf@gnu.org> <83d2lrczi7.fsf@gnu.org> <8338mmcsd9.fsf@gnu.org> <83txf1blf2.fsf@gnu.org> <87txf133yd.fsf@zigzag.favinet> <83r4a5bj5x.fsf@gnu.org> <87mwktdy6r.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <83iovhb0ez.fsf@gnu.org> <87k3fxdpmg.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <837gbwbcsx.fsf@gnu.org> <87d2lnevq7.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87ob57rlkb.fsf_-_@informatimago.com> <35e892b1-73b8-4ca2-9317-7eb83e7223e5@default> <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1385599813 12828 80.91.229.3 (28 Nov 2013 00:50:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2013 00:50:13 +0000 (UTC) To: Drew Adams , "Pascal J. Bourguignon" , emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Nov 28 01:50:18 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1VlpoA-00071d-9Q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 28 Nov 2013 01:50:18 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:38476 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlpo9-0007vv-Ud for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:50:17 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60695) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlpo5-0007uP-Pl for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:50:14 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlpo4-0006dD-IK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:50:13 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-oa0-x22e.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22e]:52279) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Vlpo4-0006d1-DY for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 19:50:12 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-oa0-f46.google.com with SMTP id o6so8404410oag.5 for ; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:50:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=+B14FmA17RoMAAx6lgBybDFIof5db2USBDYPR6SZVtk=; b=MnQQ3bSAU/IRA+ZWjstQoFNhSh/Ro3wJAbhkzfLoS4ANkkcH/Rc6m5Gc2y4Wx5cxCk ZVfLYMSmLO790L/0IXDO5PyqOBgU6ZYaaDfrizLnm/eO+KTBkf+Wd5Oct0S3RMf3XLcg aLvRFaaegiipYkFvCF83iZj1+MqJn//lCGDWVJSgB+fYqlV9QmlLA2D5GKTElNZUJE0y FHk843vDfKPQZgyMeWRcuUbv1s9v3n0eQ2xRIVIpHYN+xdpoXZS+FTyeav7MIjoet8ed 80PGKOxX80lKVdgwELql/Y3+b2cuBGMYzwk/9xr41+SCz54OjTusMzB1b30n3b4OlNF1 C7kA== X-Received: by 10.182.107.164 with SMTP id hd4mr12183656obb.58.1385599811800; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:50:11 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.182.112.42 with HTTP; Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:50:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <464a688e-b7a5-4f6b-84b4-d7cd42107c8d@default> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4003:c02::22e X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:165820 Archived-At: I have been a fan of XML for 15 years. But that said, you're not going to convince me that I'll do better with something that is a reflection of data structures from a word processor as opposed to say an org file that focuses on the structure of my content. I became a fan of XML because I hoped it would bring the richness of s-expressions to the Web, but that dream collapsed a long time ago. -- Best Regards, --raman On 11/27/13, Drew Adams wrote: >> Internal data structures being XML is a small step -- but only a >> very small step. Angle brackets do not in themselves semantics >> make:-) > > Angle brackets are not an inherent part of XML, except its serialized > form. Think XML data, not XML as marked-up text. No one represents > XML internally using text. Not an angle bracket in sight. > > And internal data structure being XML or Lisp sexps (which I also > suggested) would be a GIANT step. A definition of well formedness > and being able to validate against schemas (e.g., XML schemas or DTDs) > makes a huge difference. > >> For seeing what I mean, just take a look at the xml files in any >> of the modern MS Office file formats. > > Not a reference, sorry - not representative. I've already commented > on this. MS Office's use of XML is not up to par. But even it might > improve with time... It has to interact with the rest of the world. > At a minimum, it has to grok clean XML and sooner or later will need > to be able to output clean XML for others (or they will filter to > get that). > >> Most word-processors after a while lose the distinction between >> layout style and content, and what results in the file format is >> a messy bag of bits. > > Wrong. The tendency is in the other direction, at least if you > include high-end tools that people use to create doc. Of course, > if you just count the number of executables out there in the wild, > then MS Word might beat all others combined (just a guess). Still, > it is not the measure I use, and it certainly is not a goal that > anyone starting today would aim for. > > In the context of Emacs, which would be to a large extent starting > from scratch in this area, there is zero reason to emulate something > like MS Word, in terms either of its internal data representations > or its *.doc files. (That does not mean that Emacs could not import > or export *.doc files. I mean only that it is far saner to build on > something like XML.) >