From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Radon Rosborough Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: git history tracking across renames (and emacs support) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 22:33:13 -0600 Message-ID: References: <87a7yn7tqp.fsf@lifelogs.com> <878te75xa1.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ind6l2tt.fsf@lifelogs.com> <877etklvsa.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83y3m0pv8u.fsf@gnu.org> <86608msw0h.fsf@dod.no> <838tdiet25.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3li4vh7.fsf@telefonica.net> <87efnan46u.fsf@linux-m68k.org> <86wp12qtgo.fsf@dod.no> <83tvw6chqv.fsf@gnu.org> <86shbprix7.fsf_-_@dod.no> <838t6jgl1k.fsf@gnu.org> <601m6cc6.fsf@lifelogs.com> <83o9fefnv9.fsf@gnu.org> <83d0vtfx4f.fsf@gnu.org> <83o9fce4np.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1531456354 14557 195.159.176.226 (13 Jul 2018 04:32:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 04:32:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Lars Ingebrigtsen , emacs-devel To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 13 06:32:29 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fdpkr-0003fS-5W for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 06:32:29 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35208 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdpmy-0002Z8-9A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:34:40 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:51086) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdpmG-0002Z3-Bh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:33:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdpmE-0003gl-Ro for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:33:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com ([2a00:1450:4864:20::231]:41635) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fdpmC-0003Xc-MS; Fri, 13 Jul 2018 00:33:52 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id y17-v6so18780068ljy.8; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:33:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ud/2W6jLavDc+7xWUZe1W96u+UwPeT0O49i6e7VNUaY=; b=EgS69ThscHIDR+kpqKR5ZSOOTRpecVQkng2K9hZNYPLPN7geKYD/y3K8ouQl/Ucxn7 qFtwN44IlgC+uGR2fUPAAwY2n5Gf5KDnn4vA8RLn1FYsh7cACQj3HbIFZEL5iLL0PTXl RGpk9LlGbxuYNqAr4UpXKmxfbPmL6ofk5JQJFC5V4yALd0dDue/SDo6WTTeeBWxMkJi8 UTNB9He2dGS/2+wmstE+TsF9H1nBiGG9m/9zm8mJQpKduQlHLbOIUsAOxta8lZNUmdlW FlH8Ll6Lr1OEKgNAuM8yz8yOWD2kUlnA3EGvutQqrioqPO3LCgkM6KC2G+tyjOWTAivi tNsA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ud/2W6jLavDc+7xWUZe1W96u+UwPeT0O49i6e7VNUaY=; b=QCoU8yDt8aO+oOV6R2iKduU3YUCpxu5fZIfkPtovsUwWbHGPRtLhT2x5mKpM4CxODF ySttoL+FbBAudU3XSA2D5/n+jRd/Mkuvdwyq23sxo6MFb8D8yWHix8EQDdkJUhdBOAvF JeTjuhmJg4cQOIT7tsz0DiFDFL5RnZzApCo6881D2aGURWBLZlk6scJvbQSD7PhrA1kp ms5Y2HPhSZ5EcAn7dTo9/hPOgwgNjM/i6tDAp+17qTfHAbEv7JfV7J6pJOwGrSoP6orm X9Adh0Jk/dbMaPNPVwTnll/2/J6t+6Cn3XS4dw5pDXChED2CByLL3sHkosp8cwtOyVhm zAjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOUpUlHgoKUCAPCzj/PZ6REM4ygqWep2m9Hp712jBfeW3wE9FSfyFCwP s/eQ8LhmM6057TETPTv3jOPzippnxJblc3QsKcmVCg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AAOMgpf3wUmd6JeSZt5JjXW9kjtG0wv1bsZhs9K/CxFjJjyW9iTQOH6i4kck2MCD9vDJ0UlrdKHfVOtPcqar3gpyybA= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9c82:: with SMTP id x2-v6mr464835lji.131.1531456430588; Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:33:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <83o9fce4np.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:4864:20::231 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:227316 Archived-At: > Is it really an issue with magit? And if it is, why isn't it > documented in magit's documentation? In my opinion, it doesn't really make sense for Magit, a general-purpose Git frontend, to document the specific contribution guidelines for GNU projects. Sure, Magit should document the functionality it provides, and I believe it does provide ChangeLog-related functionality. But in that case, the Emacs CONTRIBUTE should most assuredly link to that documentation. It can't simply say "please figure it out yourself"! Since GNU projects are using a nonstandard commit message formatting from the perspective of the rest of the world, I think the burden is on them to tell contributors about that format and how to produce it (if indeed the format is too burdensome to write by hand, which I believe the ChangeLog format is). >> As soon as I am linked to documentation about editing >> ChangeLog files, I will assume I've gone astray, unless it's explained >> why editing ChangeLog files is necessary in order to generate a commit >> message. > > I don't understand why. How about providing detailed critique of > what CONTRIBUTE says under "Generating ChangeLog entries"? On re-reading very carefully, I see that I read "write ChangeLog entries" as an operation that one would do when creating a ChangeLog file, whereas it was meant more generally. So, yes, the misunderstanding is my fault. However, I think it would be much clearer if there were actual, literal step-by-step instructions on how to go from a working directory with some changes in it to a properly formatted commit. Directing people to pore through the manual just so they can commit to Emacs seems a bit burdensome to me; isn't there a reason we have CONTRIBUTE? To make contributing as easy as possible? I'm sure somebody will say that I am just being lazy. But the fact remains that Emacs is much harder to contribute to than other open-source projects, because of things like this. >> It seems to me that ChangeLog is a "GNU thing". As are mailing >> lists, avoidance of GitLab, using debbugs, etc. > > Well, we are talking about Emacs, and Emacs will always be a GNU > project. *cough* https://github.com/Wilfred/remacs *cough* But seriously though, just because GNU projects usually have ChangeLogs doesn't mean that ChangeLogs are a good idea. If they are such a good idea, then why don't any other projects have them? > Nevertheless, log messages provided by contributors are pretty close > to what I'd like to see, after a couple of initial submissions, > where we generally need to point out some minor nits. But what do you want to see? Auto-generated ChangeLog entries? If that's really what you want, then it sounds like you aren't open to any other format. Personally, what I want to see in commit messages is a properly formatted summary line, links to any related bug reports, and an explanation of anything important to know about the change that can't be put in comments. These things could be included or not regardless of whether ChangeLog format is used. They are what *I* want to see; what do you want to see? > > I think the blog does a much better job of getting across its > > information clearly, concisely, and understandably: > > It's too long, IMO. Surely the seven-line bullet-point list is not too long, is it? Honestly, the rest of the article is just embellishment. If you *really* want a shorter article, there are plenty of others that say essentially the same thing in different words (because, as I've said, essentially every open-source project uses these guidelines as a baseline): * https://gist.github.com/robertpainsi/b632364184e70900af4ab688decf6f53 * https://github.com/erlang/otp/wiki/writing-good-commit-messages * https://medium.com/@steveamaza/how-to-write-a-proper-git-commit-message-e028865e5791 >> Plus, everybody knows this already, since virtually every open-source >> project follows more or less these guidelines for commit messages. > > If so, why would someone need to write a blog, and why would we need > to point to it? Evidently not everybody knows that. I said "everybody knows" in the same sense that I say "everyone knows you're not supposed to check the binaries into Git". Like, sure, there are people who don't know, but in that case it's pretty much on them because this is a really basic thing that you just have to learn if you want to do open-source software development. As a corollary, if "everybody knows" something, then we should certainly mention it, but we shouldn't consider it burdensome to expect people to learn about it if they didn't already know. > If the proposal is to let people write what they want, then I don't > think I'd agree, for reasons I tried to explain. That's unfortunate. What would change your mind? My position is based on the belief that the current format makes it harder for new contributors than a more open format. If potential new contributors to Emacs were to tell me they prefer the current format, then that would change *my* mind.