From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs in the Cloud Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 11:49:31 +1000 Message-ID: References: NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1311558587 28305 80.91.229.12 (25 Jul 2011 01:49:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 01:49:47 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Michael Reilly Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Jul 25 03:49:43 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1QlAId-00071H-Cc for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 25 Jul 2011 03:49:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42619 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QlAIc-0002jr-W4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:49:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:55773) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QlAIa-0002jP-SU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:49:37 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QlAIY-00068V-08 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:49:36 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-iy0-f169.google.com ([209.85.210.169]:61336) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1QlAIX-00068L-Ii for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 21:49:33 -0400 Original-Received: by iyb14 with SMTP id 14so5133804iyb.0 for ; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:49:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=v1dWw+sl/bjbUG8ObUX7Uy94tzsb0P499L9atdkKgZQ=; b=GT1YICkAu7trzgD4nGcR8N9+K2H67agGgXTpMioylqWnuHz8Cj2zX4YaOwRtb2xKI4 uCHizwp09HV2PHQWfLL818aX+ov+CePhqSQrvSn2q6M7frYXTEoU1het/R3XAN2cNjwg owchrzEyOvBsclhuy5Z8XfwF60ciMgHqrxVdE= Original-Received: by 10.231.81.133 with SMTP id x5mr4118194ibk.161.1311558571690; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:49:31 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.231.20.6 with HTTP; Sun, 24 Jul 2011 18:49:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.210.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:142273 Archived-At: On Sun, Jul 24, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Paul Michael Reilly wrote= : > I recently tried out a ChromeBook for a month or so. =A0The attraction wa= s > primarily the simplicity of the system. =A0I love the idea of not having = to > deal directly with an underlying OS, not having to configure devices or > drivers, not having to do backups, not worrying about losing files, or > dealing with security, or having the hardware go belly up. =A0While the > experience was a mixed success (I returned the box since it was underpowe= red > and led to very poor Chrome behavior: slow and lots of crashed tabs and > extensions). =A0But most of all, life without Emacs, even for just short > periods, just plain sucks. > But a sufficiently powerful machine could provide a ChromeBook experience > and undoubtedly will as ChromeOS matures. =A0But it will not be in Google= 's > interest to provide a native Emacs experience which leads to the likeliho= od > of a ChromeOS derivative, if only to have a clean Emacs integration, > (possible but unlikely) or a Cloud based Emacs experience being developed= . > Before I go on, I think I basically understand Richard's (and others) str= ong > anti-cloud stance: it is crazy to put sensitive data totally in the hands= of > giant corporations. But there is usefulness in having cloud based > organizations provide infrastructure support (data preservation, replicat= ion > for accessibility, simple security) for information that is not highly > sensitive, like a music collection. =A0And there is usefulness in providi= ng > access to sensitive data that is provided by Cloud based infrastructure t= hat > is under one's own control (a personal server for example) or with third > party organizations that one does trust (FSF, FreeCDDB, etc.) > So if you buy the premise that there are circumstances where a Cloud base= d > machine makes sense, but you want to have an Emacs experience in that > environment, where does that Emacs experience come from? =A0A true Emacs > extension/plugin for Chrome? =A0An Emacs built with an embedded web serve= r? =A0A > limited Emacs exposed by ChromeOS that supports the existing Emacs > extensions? An Emacs protocol supported by an Apache module? > My preference leans towards the embedded server and/or the Emacs protocol > approaches. =A0I have not been tracking this list for a few years so I do= n't > know if any of this has been discussed already (a browse of the archives = did > not reveal anything "cloud" related.) =A0And I figured that if there is a= ny > work going on of a related nature, this list would be aware of it and > provide pointers/references. > Thanks, > -pmr > I have grown to really dislike this 'cloud' terminology - it is one of the worst bullshit bingo words I've seen for a long time and unless qualified with a lot of other definitions, means pretty much nothing. As an example, nearly 20 years ago, I use to run emacs over a compressed X protocol where emacs was running on a remote server - was this running emacs in the cloud? Perhaps the most disturbing part of your post was your rational for why you like the concept of the cloud - essentially, because it has the promise of relieving you of the burden of maintaining an OS, various software packages and data backup/security etc. On first glance, this seems like a nice idea - after all, we are all busy and time is too short and really, a lot of this stuff is not that interesting. Imagine all the freedom we could get without having to worry about all the nitty gritty bits - just use and forget. However, I think this is very very dangerous and in fact believe that instead of freedom, it has the real danger of disenfranchising the user. Worse still, as we have seen in the last 20 years, technology often starts off as a luxury or special use application, but over time, becomes more like an essential item. Consider how disadvantaged you become today if you don't have access to a computer or the internet - sure, you can still function at a level, but it is a much lower level. Imagine if you lost access to all those on-line services you use routinely each day. Just consider the added burden of dealing with bills, banking, shopping etc etc if you had to do it without a computer or access to the internet? Consider the difficulty in even getting many jobs if you don't have an email address, access to on-line job placement agencies and cannot provide your CV electronically. Now consider the same situation, but now you are totally dependent on someone else for all those services. Put aside issues of data privacy and ownership for a moment and just consider what the market might do as you become moire and more dependent on their services. Go one step further and consider a world where all the small providers have been consumed by the larger corporations and now there is only one or two actual service providers. Who will hold the power in that relationship? I doubt it will be the end user. Rather than the cloud as the solution, what we should be striving for is technology that is easy to manage and reliable. There may be a role for 'cloud' type facilities, but structured so that the end user maintains control and retains freedom. We do need to make it easier for everyone to handle their data, to maintain their OS and applications and provide choice. The 'cloud' is not the answer. The 'cloud' is just marketing hype that many businesses like because they believe it will relieve them from managing something that many find difficult to understand and expensive to maintain. While it may promise to solve a real problem, in many ways the cure is worse than the problem. We need to recognise that technology is currently too complex and too expensive for many to deal with easily and address those issues in a way which gives more control and freedom. Maybe that can be achieved with a 'cloude 2.0' that redefines things in a way which guarantees control and power stays with the user, but I'm not sure how such an ideal can be achieved in a less than ideal world. However, the goal of having emacs available everywhere and anywhere I need it is IMO a good one! Tim P.S. As someone who is being forced to examine 'cloud' solutions for my current employer, I'm shocked at how many of these so-called cloud providers are not following even basic good practice wrt data security, backup and maintenance or even guarantee of service. There seems to be too many who are gambling with other peoples businesses - essentially, take your money with lots of promises and hope nothing goes wrong. If it does, take the money and run - its a gamble. If you win, you make lots of money. If you lose, move on as you probably won't have lost much personally. Meanwhile, the businesses you were servicing go down the drain because they can't provide service, buill customers etc etc.