From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Trying out GitLab (was Re: In support of Jonas Bernoulli's Magit) Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2017 09:19:06 +1000 Message-ID: References: <87poddqb5y.fsf@gnu.org> <871spsveyw.fsf@petton.fr> <87van4tzu9.fsf@petton.fr> <871spsla9r.fsf@lifelogs.com> <871sprb394.fsf@gmail.com> <640b51d5-9786-358c-985e-c55023acd75c@yandex.ru> <838tjzkuvs.fsf@gnu.org> <87fue68wwb.fsf@russet.org.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c07272a8d02060553d6934d" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1499555994 24973 195.159.176.226 (8 Jul 2017 23:19:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2017 23:19:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Ted Zlatanov , Emacs developers , avarab@gmail.com, Dmitry Gutov , Eli Zaretskii , toon@iotcl.com To: Phillip Lord Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 09 01:19:49 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dTz0s-00068R-UV for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Jul 2017 01:19:47 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34295 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTz0y-0004pE-AE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 19:19:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47623) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTz0J-0004ox-8o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 19:19:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTz0I-0005mX-4U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 19:19:11 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]:33800) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dTz0F-0005l2-Nf; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 19:19:07 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id d78so50959742qkb.1; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 16:19:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Vh37ey+A0zhY+jUPQvFPthawPlxsJfx23l4Cz4LMyT0=; b=fxI0utNHo3UzdaHJ3Eq0ocvSQ7MSC9U76IR506eWYRtC6hLIpOb5BVkjoYQdNQXECF XqXau5bPkBd9Q5qo+CXcH7oT+zZAUQthos49C+Pd8LLXXRXbotZDuMSHLro+ld74yteM 6Ykh3dmbmbqwms8zdU3xF8lMXB0mI6pxFhQA2NGDd50C1QQ0JbA8wFcbYtcPeG7Y5+gI J8Df7EaLCDHVbpsi5ONsTjlXqfWBz8HsmFRkdt/IFiDaeu4GY10uBb4PQ0UCUtYq6Ise YWfXOznEXyLOK/hUN2es8iyfx91HxtAMce983MUsyp5tNdQGoNVc89xPjlJiABrxwK6w Z57Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Vh37ey+A0zhY+jUPQvFPthawPlxsJfx23l4Cz4LMyT0=; b=KNWMOgohQptNhm/X7X4GZIJUmQ/PP2H/OPR/gOOviyuga52bwxLBM6jw5y/K6njnpm wAxo79nYowu0td+JKZoYHD0FA1MoStHM/UimIYHLP6Yy/ZZvUEGRIcV8hxt8e+cJIpyg 5SK4erXU9zWV3XaYze1jIsKK06NQz3dndT0ERBC4sK81nIHJMSU8gLDIqr9PfdI0G3DF qmjDATK3jLJGUbSYF1JS8NcBjXPGPO/kzM1DLWQcI/UqmfWyN8ACp2pPLySzUPmC3Y22 gaoaWesgJFQY3ZCCxfSG5lu0IAt0Adn3djQmA70AQhN6IDbvHwhrmQpl/fISrEWw8UOV 1Rng== X-Gm-Message-State: AKS2vOwja+Z7k+CponeaFK1CfLobOht1cWOOF2AcBQ2brhLKvhmLe8QS SwYA/sOONG6U7Yjz8hPIDzzf7M5TRw== X-Received: by 10.55.137.6 with SMTP id l6mr75529306qkd.83.1499555947150; Sat, 08 Jul 2017 16:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.200.38.227 with HTTP; Sat, 8 Jul 2017 16:19:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87fue68wwb.fsf@russet.org.uk> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:216348 Archived-At: --94eb2c07272a8d02060553d6934d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I think Phil's point is very important. While I find github/gitlab to be a nice interface for small projects, I'm not at all convinced that it adds much for larger or more complex projects. As an example, the bug/issue tracker really doesn't scale well once you have hundreds of bugs/issues. Once you have a project with more than ~10k lines of code, multiple branches and large numbers of contributors and bug reporters, administration becomes a big issue. I suspect that few except perhaps casual users will really use the UI's provided by github/gitlab, preferring instead to use just git. At that point, where the repo is hosted becomes less relevant. My experience with github and gitlab issue tracking has been that you need to either use a different tool or develop custom workflows using the API in order to manage large numbers of bugs effectively. Again, the web interface is OK for casual users and smaller projects, but lacks the level of sophistication necessary for larger teams and larger bug numbers. I'm not saying that the current bug tracker is great, but I've found few bug tracking systems to be great and the current one is adequate once you invest time into it. I'm certainly not against something like gitlab or the gitlab interface, but I don't think it will be as beneficial or 'revolutionary' to Emacs' maintenance or level of contributions as some seem to feel. In most ways, it is just a little bit of UI sugar and a community is more than just a bit of sugar. On 9 July 2017 at 07:02, Phillip Lord wrote: > Dmitry Gutov writes: > > > On 7/8/17 2:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > >> It's actually more than that: patches submitted to Emacs need to > >> conform to our coding and various other standards: include > >> properly-formatted commit log messages, documentation, and (where > >> appropriate) tests, etc. Patch review could require cleanup changes > >> etc. > > > > That doesn't negate the advantages of integrated solutions like > > GitLab, though. Emacs is not the only project with standards. > > > > We often enforce those via code review, and GitLab helps with that. > > And the process is much easier in most projects. Push to feature branch, > get comments, using line-level in diff commenting. Then fix, squash, > force push. Finally, single click merge, PR closes. > > Phil > > > -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --94eb2c07272a8d02060553d6934d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think Phil's point is very important. While I find g= ithub/gitlab to be a nice interface for small projects, I'm not at all = convinced that it adds much for larger or more complex projects. As an exam= ple, the bug/issue tracker really doesn't scale well once you have hund= reds of bugs/issues.=C2=A0

Once you have a project with = more than ~10k lines of code, multiple branches and large numbers of contri= butors and bug reporters, administration becomes a big issue. I suspect tha= t few except perhaps casual users will really use the UI's provided by = github/gitlab, preferring instead to use just git. At that point, where the= repo is hosted becomes less relevant.=C2=A0

My ex= perience with github and gitlab issue tracking has been that you need to ei= ther use a different tool or develop custom workflows using the API in orde= r to manage large numbers of bugs effectively. Again, the web interface is = OK for casual users and smaller projects, but lacks the level of sophistica= tion necessary for larger teams and larger bug numbers. I'm not saying = that the current bug tracker is great, but I've found few bug tracking = systems to be great and the current one is adequate once you invest time in= to it.=C2=A0

I'm certainly not against somethi= ng like gitlab or the gitlab interface, but I don't think it will be as= beneficial or 'revolutionary' to Emacs' maintenance or level o= f contributions as some seem to feel. In most ways, it is just a little bit= of UI sugar and a community is more than just a bit of sugar. =C2=A0
=

On 9 July 2= 017 at 07:02, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord@russet.org.uk> wrote:
Dmitry Gutov= <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:
> On 7/8/17 2:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
>> It's actually more than that: patches submitted to Emacs need = to
>> conform to our coding and various other standards: include
>> properly-formatted commit log messages, documentation, and (where<= br> >> appropriate) tests, etc.=C2=A0 Patch review could require cleanup = changes
>> etc.
>
> That doesn't negate the advantages of integrated solutions like > GitLab, though. Emacs is not the only project with standards.
>
> We often enforce those via code review, and GitLab helps with that.
And the process is much easier in most projects. Push to feature bra= nch,
get comments, using line-level in diff commenting. Then fix, squash,
force push. Finally, single click merge, PR closes.

Phil





--
regards,

Tim

--
T= im Cross

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