From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: macOS support (was: bug#30800: 26.0.91; unknown crash on macos) Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2018 08:24:43 +1100 Message-ID: References: <83fu4tjmdv.fsf@gnu.org> <20180321191903.GA38993@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <83d0zxjk5p.fsf@gnu.org> <20180321201234.GA39094@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <834ll8k1tx.fsf@gnu.org> <83po3whzln.fsf@gnu.org> <20180323195210.GA41757@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <20180323214705.GA41855@breton.holly.idiocy.org> <83r2oagevx.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c05df4a39fba30568434911" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1522012976 20444 195.159.176.226 (25 Mar 2018 21:22:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 21:22:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Alan Third , aaronjensen@gmail.com, Emacs developers To: David Reitter Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Mar 25 23:22:51 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1f0D6J-0005Ff-Am for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 23:22:51 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52603 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0D8M-00051u-ON for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 17:24:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54810) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0D8C-00051e-08 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 17:24:49 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0D8A-0003ww-Rn for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 17:24:47 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-qt0-x234.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234]:44003) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1f0D88-0003vV-Ur; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 17:24:45 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-qt0-x234.google.com with SMTP id s48so17722936qtb.10; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uzbbUqlenGSWR1VXf+QLnrNjgocXFeL4L7vk40YDy5I=; b=YocFWAvHlI0p1Bc2dEGNsRX47Wj9Hzgje4sSQCcpVFegru04uXxY6r/EfWnSbaoLGo M1ighhVP5vrTnVjJWoa7RZzD1CpmKBqcFBr17Mq2QtQjjM52vnoudes6y1DCgwnuoX/h QSiiDpnvzviqI0gg5XZf839YihinJJPEBseP0kYnMTX5kznhlCpkZBRJVCISUMNJE+b+ tf0EekFDVwd4oZ6y0661PAm+hSGZ2dCRN6JBPG26wCxu3W8MrtMuPaTs7mpaIyeCG3UO 7E0f2ds3RJx0Rd2mYX1TWlfuKjXlgx3Q2SVQHRL42shGKmI+ygwHOtzG8VvMWoN+vDOx 4lcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uzbbUqlenGSWR1VXf+QLnrNjgocXFeL4L7vk40YDy5I=; b=C3ObxKqcWvuwLLLngc4KUgitLhSsC+PoRp1Sl71XG5n8zKIJdqbWedpdpd4ZOkTpjp gew9lrtxCUSIwR9iZDs7OQxv5s3cr7UNTOpvz08lZHh4qEvXlumt6ozqQgDvcIPRj5yS kpxGegAMcvNvBS4RDjFguAjNvG54i3dsXLGpYtZ4UwDYBILDStU2ZIGQQWO+w9O8wURo 7i+2FrufQRyDyqbMiA97uPi2t7LLZOclLDCIOoThIyus4+C7rTuh7TT4p/mVHmuaxgly SWMkIa0pgQMRz7h4k0d/LJA2ja1P1dINLfRXLGbpFEmXt1wsdLtElkmE6uDqY1f2n+dv fIUg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7Gn7ZvNmw8xdtk7pWK5hw+Tm/LzL7G0IXHsmXDSmVmO3Sp70EhV q2Eyh0MjeK0qrj3UzqPA6hYt2MToUE3CNjAURgI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AG47ELs+wCZiOeKaHqsSwH7/BTq8LtzHNfhM9SYarSUjEWClWdV9wTaAVMNDOOoOatiRKXNfxen+r72wfc1kxvEmEWo= X-Received: by 10.237.44.100 with SMTP id f91mr54608372qtd.80.1522013084186; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 14:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.200.52.9 with HTTP; Sun, 25 Mar 2018 14:24:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::234 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:224020 Archived-At: --94eb2c05df4a39fba30568434911 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think we are doing users any favours by providing long backwards compatibility for OS versions, especially if that comes at the cost of code clarity, maintainability and feature stability. There have been some significant security patches applied to later versions of OSX. I'm not suiggesting we immediately drop support for earlier versions, but 10.6 was released in 2009 - a 9 to 10 year backwards compatibility is probably excessive - 5 years would probably be a better target. On 26 March 2018 at 07:08, David Reitter wrote: > On Mar 24, 2018, at 2:35 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > > Are there any numbers about how widespread each version is on end-user > > machines? > > Better, I can show you the number of unique (and somewhat frequent) > Aquamacs Emacs users throughout 2017, below. > (Some of them will have upgraded throughout the year, so they would be > counted multiple times.) > > In these data, we=E2=80=99re seeing that out of all users, only 2.15% are= still on > Mac OS X 10.6. (Full distribution shown below.) > > If we do the same for November and December 2017 only. Now we=E2=80=99re= down to > 1.21% and 1.24% 10.6 users, respectively. > > Looking at queries (which run every third day, as long as Emacs is in > use): Out of the Dec 2017 queries (838) from machine that still run 10.6= , > only 6% (54) bothered to upgrade to the latest version, which was release= d > in mid-2016. Clearly, users of very old operating systems also don=E2=80= =99t care > to upgrade their Emacs. > > Now, there are some old Macs that can only run 10.6. However, clearly, > few users will update applications but not never the OS. > > I hope these data can support your decision where to direct scarce > volunteer resources. > > > > [aquamacs /home/protected]$ ./macos-users v2017 > unique users with more than 10 startups: > OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard: > 1074 > OS X 10.7 Lion: > 776 > OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion: > 726 > OS X 10.9 Mavericks: > 2631 > OS X 10.10 Yosemite: > 5418 > OS X 10.11 El Capitan: > 11526 > macOS 10.12 Sierra: > 20594 > macOS 10.13 High Sierra: > 7116 > =E2=80=94 > Total 49861 > --=20 regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --94eb2c05df4a39fba30568434911 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think we are doing users any favours by provid= ing long backwards compatibility for OS versions, especially if that comes = at the cost of code clarity, maintainability and feature stability. There h= ave been some significant security patches applied to later versions of OSX= . I'm not suiggesting we immediately drop support for earlier versions,= but 10.6 was released in 2009 - a 9 to 10 year backwards compatibility is = probably excessive - 5 years would probably be a better target.=C2=A0
<= br>


On 26 March 2018 at 07:08, David Reitter <= ;david.reitter= @gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 24, 2018, at 2:35 AM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

> Are there any numbers about how widespread each version is on end-user=
> machines?

Better, I can show you the number of unique (and somewhat frequent) = Aquamacs Emacs users throughout 2017, below.
(Some of them will have upgraded throughout the year, so they would be coun= ted multiple times.)

In these data, we=E2=80=99re seeing that out of all users, only 2.15% are s= till on Mac OS X 10.6.=C2=A0 (Full distribution shown below.)

If we do the same for November and December 2017 only.=C2=A0 Now we=E2=80= =99re down to 1.21% and 1.24% 10.6 users, respectively.

Looking at queries (which run every third day, as long as Emacs is in use):= =C2=A0 Out of the Dec 2017 queries (838) from machine that still run 10.6, = only 6% (54) bothered to upgrade to the latest version, which was released = in mid-2016.=C2=A0 Clearly, users of very old operating systems also don=E2= =80=99t care to upgrade their Emacs.

Now, there are some old Macs that can only run 10.6.=C2=A0 However, clearly= , few users will update applications but not never the OS.

I hope these data can support your decision where to direct scarce voluntee= r resources.



[aquamacs /home/protected]$ ./macos-users v2017
unique users with more than 10 startups:
OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1074
OS X 10.7 Lion:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0776
OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0726
OS X 10.9 Mavericks:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 2631
OS X 10.10 Yosemite:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 5418
OS X 10.11 El Capitan:
=C2=A0 =C2=A011526
macOS 10.12 Sierra:
=C2=A0 =C2=A020594
macOS 10.13 High Sierra:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 7116
=E2=80=94
Total 49861



--
regards,

Tim

--
T= im Cross

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