From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: inclusion of emacs-w3m Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 08:25:09 +1000 Message-ID: References: <87txw9r9o2.fsf@kanis.fr> <871uihst4z.fsf@gnus.org> <87pq61k48h.fsf@kanis.fr> <87d320a6jd.fsf@gnus.org> <87ehmgqh4u.fsf@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1346883920 14156 80.91.229.3 (5 Sep 2012 22:25:20 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 22:25:20 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Andrey Kotlarski Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 06 00:25:23 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1T9O2E-0002qd-KG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2012 00:25:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37112 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9O2B-0007tY-Ik for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:25:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54060) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9O26-0007r2-Tx for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:25:17 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9O22-0004kn-Hb for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:25:14 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vc0-f169.google.com ([209.85.220.169]:62793) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1T9O22-0004k7-Cy for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 18:25:10 -0400 Original-Received: by vcbfl13 with SMTP id fl13so1784399vcb.0 for ; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:25:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=FmHdgXi/WGd4oE844+cXZ3dgYRZUT1olESmGIIzx9SQ=; b=S35AjuMeIIME4EySjzYvERvWzsBaWKbFzAewnw/EQ9Sbh7rcA1EVgVoPhaNmEuzKzr 5qAXsvjZL29dsibkIoei2ingJfVBwC9AnRyuPTSN89q/ZNbm1VxuzkDaqQwSaS2LU0VV fbW/stQ+kx/Acjq+GdI00N39/HoU70YJrLooGlAkUrgDFim2M6cWqlU6sIQtOV1iAiof rmIbNQLyaikS1rpDP73QbWIBBoyIcwhIUaDVB0T/e3BBfvg0S0rZw1x3Vync+SlEYzrt ysMbAbwH34Q9+eqxzK1zk1lBzLt6/yiKkFo1JKsnp4gQlNQFByAuRrOg4mJ/irDGu5xw nKUw== Original-Received: by 10.52.175.130 with SMTP id ca2mr17135322vdc.112.1346883909747; Wed, 05 Sep 2012 15:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.58.170.40 with HTTP; Wed, 5 Sep 2012 15:25:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ehmgqh4u.fsf@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 209.85.220.169 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:153081 Archived-At: On 6 September 2012 07:44, Andrey Kotlarski wrote: > Lars Ingebrigtsen writes: > >> Ivan Kanis writes: >> >>>> Now that Emacs proper has an HTML parser (via libxml2), an HTML renderer >>>> (via shr.el), and an HTTP library (via url*.el), writing a totally >>>> Emacs-based web browser should be pretty easy for somebody who has some >>>> time to spare. >>> >>> I don't think it's that easy. >> >> Why not? You just need to add some bookmarking stuff and a cookie >> editor, and you're done. > > There is w3, though unmaintained for years. Until some threading > support comes to Elisp, such packages would suffer. > >> Oh, and forms support. And stuff. It shouldn't take anybody more than >> a month to implement a full-featured Emacs browser. (Well. As >> full-featured as a totally non-JS browser will ever be.) > > If the rumours of Guile Elisp nearing working integration with GNU/Emacs > are right and as Guile has support for Javascript too (not to mention > native threads), that could open some doors. > > > -- > It is better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to > open it and remove all doubt. > -- Mark Twain > > I think Lars' suggestion is a good one. There are lots of very cool things you can do with an all elisp web browser. The emacspeak package has made some very interesting use of w3, but the lack of work on w3 is beginning to cause some problems. w3m is useful, but limited compared to what you can do with a browser all written in elisp. I've looked at the w3 code base a number of times, but the work required to re-factor it is quite daunting. The addition of a parser and renderer in emacs certainly offers some excellent opportunities. If I had more knowledge re: DOM, CSS etc, it would be something I'd love to have time to look at. Would certainly try to assist anyone who was thinking of developing something in this are where I can. Assuming a browser with no javascript support, the challenge is likely to be how to implement a workable subset of CSS support to enable a reasonable rendering of pages. This is one area where w3 seems to be quite broken. The Guile approach would appear to offer some really great opportunities, but after so many years, I will wait until we actually see an emacs with support for guile which is as integrated as elisp is. In the meantime, my suggestion would be for any package maintainers who have requirements for basic display of html content to consider using native elisp packages over relying on things like w3m.el. While w3m.el gives a solution to things like viewing HTML formatted email, native elsip support would allow the sort of customizations we have grown to love. If the appropriate paperwork and licensing can be worked out to add w3m.el as an elpa package, I don't see any problems with that - it would provide at lest an option for those on platforms where it makes sense. -- Tim Cross