From: Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
To: Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com>
Cc: Vijay Lakshminarayanan <laksvij@gmail.com>,
Leo <sdl.web@gmail.com>,
emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: more on starttls, gnutls-cli and using tls for mail
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 08:48:11 +1000 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAC=50j8OF=rVMOr1FjsW93p8jV9+-2f=F2c9WY2u+GZfXM4paA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87pqk4i03k.fsf@kwarm.red-bean.com>
On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 12:28 AM, Karl Fogel <kfogel@red-bean.com> wrote:
> Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>>OK, thanks Jijay. So, it would seem the use case is possibly something
>>specific google has done to detect possible abuse of an email account.
>>I've not run into this myself, but at least this gives one possible
>>data point on why this additional complexity may be required.
>
> There's another issue too:
>
> Although "smtp.gmail.com" is the One True Server for sending mails
> through Google [1], the account you log in with there could be a regular
> Google/Gmail account (call this type "A") or it could be a Google Apps
> For Your Domain (type "B") account.
>
> These are rather different beasts. While you could set up your "A"
> account such that it's able to send mail with a From address that is
> really of type "B", I had some experiences -- clean reproduction recipes
> are hard to create, unfortunately -- that indicated there could be authn
> problems or being-blocked-as-spam problems if I sent from type "A"
> repeatedly with a From address of type "B". But these problems go away
> if I authenticate to smtp.gmail.com as user "B" whenever sending mail
> with an address of type "B".
>
> Again, in practice it's impossible to get definitive answers to what the
> rules are. Running experiments is very time consuming, it's hard to
> isolate variables, and Google doesn't have the staff to answer in-depth
> technical questions (though random members of the public sometimes do --
> see [2]).
>
> Essentially, running one's own email server has become too hard
> nowadays, but if one uses an email server hosted by an organization
> large enough to deal competently with the running an email server in the
> modern era, then by definition that organization will be too large to
> answer individual questions. The problem is systemic; I'm not blaming
> Google -- I'm glad they offer the smtp.gmail.com service.
>
> So I have to get Emacs to switch sender authn creds on an email-by-email
> basis. Recent smtpmail.el changes have made this harder, not easier.
>
> -Karl
>
> [1] The reason I send mail through Google is because if I use my own
> server, it can be difficult to avoid the server being blacklisted
> even when that server is not the origin of any spam. See
> http://www.rants.org/2010/05/26/email-blacklisting-considered-harmful/
>
> [2] http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/gmail/thread?tid=45781946ea84651e
>
Thanks Karl. It seems there are use cases for using different
authenticated users based on the from/reply address being used.
However, it should be noted that this is not due to any requirement or
limitation of smtp - this is because of addtional requirements imposed
by providers, such as google's gmail, which adds additional
restrictions that are not standard smtp behavior.
Tim
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2011-08-17 22:48 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 50+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2011-08-14 1:19 more on starttls, gnutls-cli and using tls for mail T. V. Raman
2011-08-14 1:26 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-14 3:40 ` Leo
2011-08-14 5:42 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-14 12:02 ` Vijay Lakshminarayanan
2011-08-14 21:07 ` Leo
2011-08-15 3:53 ` Vijay Lakshminarayanan
2011-08-15 4:27 ` Leo
2011-08-15 7:41 ` Vijay Lakshminarayanan
2011-08-15 6:03 ` Tim Cross
2011-08-15 7:38 ` Vijay Lakshminarayanan
2011-08-17 1:54 ` Tim Cross
2011-08-17 14:28 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-17 22:48 ` Tim Cross [this message]
2011-08-18 0:33 ` chad
2011-08-18 3:11 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2011-08-17 17:27 ` Vijay Lakshminarayanan
2011-08-15 7:47 ` Richard Riley
2011-08-15 9:21 ` David Engster
2011-08-17 2:03 ` Tim Cross
2011-08-17 7:03 ` David Engster
2011-08-15 16:25 ` Dimitri Fontaine
2011-08-16 9:33 ` Leo
2011-08-16 10:12 ` Dimitri Fontaine
2011-08-17 2:13 ` Tim Cross
2011-08-17 1:08 ` Richard Riley
2011-08-14 6:24 ` Roland Winkler
2011-08-14 6:32 ` Roland Winkler
2011-08-14 16:23 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-15 15:21 ` Roland Winkler
2011-08-17 2:09 ` Tim Cross
2011-09-25 13:08 ` Ted Zlatanov
2011-09-25 17:26 ` Karl Fogel
2011-09-26 17:22 ` Ted Zlatanov
2011-09-27 15:28 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-17 21:06 ` Multiple SMTP accounts with smtpmail.el (was: more on starttls, gnutls-cli and using tls for mail) Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-18 3:19 ` Multiple SMTP accounts with smtpmail.el Leo
2011-08-18 14:20 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-18 16:41 ` Vijay Lakshminarayanan
2011-08-19 14:42 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-21 2:13 ` Karl Fogel
2011-08-21 4:16 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-08-22 7:22 ` Glenn Morris
2011-09-25 13:10 ` Ted Zlatanov
2011-09-26 18:06 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2011-09-26 19:24 ` Ted Zlatanov
2011-09-25 22:46 ` Rasmus
2011-08-14 17:12 ` more on starttls, gnutls-cli and using tls for mail Chong Yidong
2011-08-17 20:58 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2011-08-14 2:10 raman
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