From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tim Cross Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Package proposal: greader, an audio emacs reader for blind and dislexic people Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2019 08:36:41 +1100 Message-ID: References: <87tvhpx0fr.fsf@web.de> <87ftt9wpfh.fsf@web.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002d0bdb0580c7d3a5" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="29580"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: emacs devel To: Michelangelo Rodriguez Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jan 31 22:38:08 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1gpK2B-0007YR-JT for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 22:38:08 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33123 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gpK2A-0005RO-6S for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:38:06 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46120) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gpK13-0005P3-8F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:36:59 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gpK11-0000uS-0E for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:36:57 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]:44552) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1gpK10-0000tt-O5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 16:36:54 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id g16so4160971otg.11 for ; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:36:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=17NRL7HEEgj+oBJl1nzn2B8NWr+pOMWqVoxvoTLu2GQ=; b=WsQ6EC6D/XzRwAONk7s1jzYedTw0i6KMBW2mXxLXsw36AEaSWjyUfN0AeqsqRCBTJH fhNDUbs4+Uv3fzFTZCoMVIB63owAoMjp/wCm5aa63E6dkG5qgm5+COUvpi+avWK0fq8c R6B3/hUT1pJQBRhzk3Npg4HskHm73wZB1y7vg6P+788unv5VGxtXY3aN4L3A4hkxxb6O x0rj4JjAtteTOHGDSIn5gjje0ehwc7V0N1FLVidA9oimeI7bq/ikQQTglZZ/wwXSqVGk +LZd6I92FqRDXd93DMaebb/ZoiXp8T4GqVx8jGrxlqUdyV0xhbKzhDgAIunP3pg74hwL 1LFw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=17NRL7HEEgj+oBJl1nzn2B8NWr+pOMWqVoxvoTLu2GQ=; b=b4leQ1nmZsiOBU51BQ653AQKPuq9mU+HDnTq/1Yk4eXpNwS9bq9qBPxiTBIcEsnH3/ o/8kduuK3nWJDEMDNCdtIdifne7AyAezD4sN5QI/RUXUj32ZGM8Gu+p/u3nzNGNUr70s Esq1PM6AACftqiC3EMSVkKtxw+U7oUgQ/ka5y9hz1mc1/CZBLalaHo8Eptf4cpCjNj8C 20GjPDuux3DWV7iLDU3apaRe+CfzMpBubF/ubuD8RzxHQdwf15p3sFpdjPUHsgsSRZ1t wC6ag2NB477Wk0kErJD1iPoVGGpE8xEsUMZ/Qw8aKqg25Qx7OAj+0iL/IfhphK0LbrVc wRtw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJcUukfDxyfyO5TW0bTq2NLbIhRvWiT7TlgY8v3RMaJEUTfpCNia2Hvi 17xIb9y/1kVxY9FZMADe0DgSEXoptIexj5Y0r9Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ALg8bN7T8K69fMfIiCoFbJe7VPCpbU0T9HVXOIJJXL+53WlHefW+EAGi4N6NFDaioLJUcxLbXMhpdvKjQi3c4kbZnnM= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:19a8:: with SMTP id k37mr28255952otk.283.1548970613343; Thu, 31 Jan 2019 13:36:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:232869 Archived-At: --0000000000002d0bdb0580c7d3a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I am also blind and use either Emacspeak or speechd.el on a daily basis. I run mainly Emacspeak under either stumpwm or MATE. I don't use Orca, speakup or anything else, except Chrome and Chromevox when I need to access web content which relies on Javascript (use eww when it doesn't). I read many different documents, web pages, source code etc every day. Emacspeak and/or emacs provide all the functions necessary to read a document by line, by paragraph, by page, beginning of buffer to cursor, cursor to end of buffer, interactive mode (i.e. read paragraph and wait until you hit space to read next paragraph), by region, by sexp. Likewise, speechd.el provides the basic functions, though lacks some of the more high level functionality of emacspeak - but this is emacs, so it is fairly trivial to create custom functions to do whatever interaction with buffers you want. I work as a developer and have to interact with remote and local systems on a daily basis. There is also a fair amount of sys admin and dba work involved in what I do. Eamcspeak is able to meet all my requirements and a primary reason why I wanted to try and understand why you found it was unable to do what you needed, requiring another package which seems to reproduce something which is already available. Your statement neither emacspeak or speechd-el offers me the possibility to read a text > and move throwgh it while in reading. > I have the idea that you think i don't know anothing about emacspeak and > speechd-el. highlights what I'm trying to understand as both emacspeak and speechd will do this in different ways. For example, emacspeak-speak-browse-buffer will speak some of the buffer and then wait until you hit space, then moves cursor to the next 'chunk' and speaks that etc. >From your last post, things are a little clearer. I can appreciate the idea of creating a package which only sends the content of a buffer to some back-end speech service. However, I think you will find there is still a lot of complexity and challenges there if you want to create something robust enough it will be useful to others. This is why I suggest using speech-dispatcher on the back-end. Emacspeak does not use speech-dispatcher and I would estimate that the most common support issues with the package, especially for new users, is getting the speech servers to work. While things have got better in the last few years, the different Linux distributions, different TTS engines, different package versions etc, make this complex and difficult to manage. One of the first things you will need to do is move your source repo to a 'free' (GNU approved) repository hosting service - github.com is not. On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 16:55, Michelangelo Rodriguez < michelangelo.rodriguez@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > I'm blind, and so i know well how speechd-el and emacspeak works. > In my particular case, i'm developing the solution i suggest because > neither emacspeak or speechd-el offers me the possibility to read a text > and move throwgh it while in reading. > I have the idea that you think i don't know anothing about emacspeak and > speechd-el. > I use, for example, sspeakup to handle emacs, and greader to read text > continuously, as it is really lighter in respect to activate emacspeak or > speechd-el. > So, the link for the code is: > https://github.com/michelangelo-rodriguez/greader.git > Regards, and thanks for the discussion. > > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2019, Tim Cross wrote: > > > I responded to the message because I use an Emacs which converts buffers > to spoken text on a daily basis and because I have written a number of > speech services, so have some familiarity with the area. I've also made > extensive use of > > both Emacspeak and speechd.el. I suspect there has been few other > responses because this is not something which many people want or have > thought about. There are also lots of programs out there which can turn > text of various formats > > into speech and probably only a small number of people who would find > doing so from within emacs much benefit. > > > > I didn't reject the package. I asked what the package did that was > different to existing libraries which I felt provided very similar > functionality to what is being proposed. It still isn't clear to me what > the proposed package would > > add that isn't available in (for example) speechd.el. In fact, the > proposed package seems to be a subset of what is available in speechd.el, > Rather than having multiple packages that do very similar things, I would > rather see that > > effort all pulling in the same direction on a single package. > > I don't agree that everything should go into GNU ELPA just because it > can The thing about GNU ELPA is that all the packages in there are actively > maintained and kept up to date with current version of Emacs. The mor > packages in there, > > the more work is required to release new versions of Emacs. IMO the GNU > ELPA repository is really for packages that represent core Emacs > functionality. For non-core things, we have MELPA, which sounds like a > better fit for this > > package. > > > > Regardless, I think the better approach is to first develop and release > the package in MELPA. If it becomes popular and the community believes it > would be a good fit for GNU ELPA, it can be moved over to that repository. > > > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Michael Heerdegen < > michael_heerdegen@web.de> wrote: > > Tim Cross writes: > > > > > speechd.el is not part of core emacs and therefore is not in the > GNU > > > ELPA repository. It is GPL'd. With something like the package > you are > > > suggesting, you are probably best off developing it as a separate > > > project and once it becomes mature, see what interest there is in > > > having it moved into becoming part of the Emacs project. I > suspect > > > this is unlikely as it isn't core Emacs functionality, but you > never > > > know. Of course, that doesn't mean it cannot be a GNU project. > > > > > > BTW, you may want to choose a different name from greader - > there have > > > been packages in the past called greader, which were interfaces > to the > > > old Google Reader RSS interface. > > > > I think you are confusing me with Michelangelo, I'm someone else. > > > > I don't know much about the matter, but I wanted to understand why > you > > rejected the suggested package and why no one else commented. > > > > Maybe it would help us who aren't that familiar with the matter if > > Michelangelo could post his suggested package, or a link to it, so > that > > we know what we speak about. > > > > BTW I had the impression that you objected that Michelangelos > package > > doesn't use speech-dispatcher, but AFAIU he told that it does. > > > > Anyway, if we haven't something like this yet in Gnu Elpa, if it's > > useful, why not add it there. I didn't mean to add it to the core > > distribution of course. > > > > > > Michael. > > > > > > > > -- > > regards, > > > > Tim > > > > -- > > Tim Cross > > > > > > -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross --0000000000002d0bdb0580c7d3a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am also blind and use either Emacspeak = or speechd.el on a daily basis.=C2=A0 I run mainly Emacspeak under either s= tumpwm or MATE. I don't use Orca, speakup or anything else, except Chro= me and Chromevox when I need to access web content which relies on Javascri= pt (use eww when it doesn't).=C2=A0

I read many diff= erent documents, web pages, source code etc every day. Emacspeak and/or ema= cs provide all the functions necessary to read a document by line, by parag= raph, by page, beginning of buffer to cursor, cursor to end of buffer, inte= ractive mode (i.e. read paragraph and wait until you hit space to read next= paragraph), by region, by sexp.=C2=A0 Likewise, speechd.el provides the ba= sic functions, though lacks some of the more high level functionality of em= acspeak - but this is emacs, so it is fairly trivial to create custom funct= ions to do whatever interaction with buffers you want.=C2=A0

=
I work as a developer and have to interact with remote and local= systems on a daily basis. There is also a fair amount of sys admin and dba= work involved in what I do. Eamcspeak is able to meet all my requirements = and a primary reason why I wanted to try and understand why you found it wa= s unable to do what you needed, requiring another package which seems to re= produce something which is already available.=C2=A0=C2=A0
Your statement=C2=A0

neither emacspeak or speechd-el offers me = the possibility to read a text=C2=A0
and move throwgh it while in readin= g.
I have the idea that you think i don't know anothing about emacsp= eak and=C2=A0
speechd-el.

hig= hlights what I'm trying to understand as both emacspeak and speechd wil= l do this in different ways. For example, emacspeak-speak-browse-buffer wil= l speak some of the buffer and then wait until you hit space, then moves cu= rsor to the next 'chunk' and speaks that etc.

<= div>From your last post, things are a little clearer. I can appreciate the = idea of creating a package which only sends the content of a buffer to some= back-end speech service. However, I think you will find there is still a l= ot of complexity and challenges there if you want to create something robus= t enough it will be useful to others. This is why I suggest using speech-di= spatcher on the back-end. Emacspeak does not use speech-dispatcher and I wo= uld estimate that the most common support issues with the package, especial= ly for new users, is getting the speech servers to work. While things have = got better in the last few years, the different Linux distributions, differ= ent TTS engines, different package versions etc, make this complex and diff= icult to manage.=C2=A0

One of the first things you= will need to do is move your source repo to a 'free' (GNU approved= ) repository hosting service - github.com= is not.



On Thu, 31 Jan 2019= at 16:55, Michelangelo Rodriguez <michelangelo.rodriguez@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,
I'm blind, and so i know well how speechd-el and emacspeak works.
In my particular case, i'm developing the solution i suggest because neither emacspeak or speechd-el offers me the possibility to read a text and move throwgh it while in reading.
I have the idea that you think i don't know anothing about emacspeak an= d
speechd-el.
I use, for example, sspeakup to handle emacs, and greader to read text
continuously, as it is really lighter in respect to activate emacspeak or <= br> speechd-el.
So, the link for the code is:
https://github.com/michelangelo-rodriguez/gread= er.git
Regards, and thanks for the discussion.


On Thu, 31 Jan 2019, Tim Cross wrote:

> I responded to the message because I use an Emacs which converts buffe= rs to spoken text on a daily basis and because I have written a number of s= peech services, so have some familiarity with the area. I've also made = extensive use of
> both Emacspeak and speechd.el. I suspect there has been few other resp= onses because this is not something which many people want or have thought = about. There are also lots of programs out there which can turn text of var= ious formats
> into speech and probably only a small number of people who would find = doing so from within emacs much benefit.
>
> I didn't reject the package. I asked what the package did that was= different to existing libraries which I felt provided very similar functio= nality to what is being proposed.=C2=A0 It still isn't clear to me what= the proposed package would
> add that isn't available in (for example) speechd.el. In fact, the= proposed package seems to be a subset of what is available in speechd.el, = Rather than having multiple packages that do very similar things, I would r= ather see that
> effort all pulling in the same direction on a single package.=C2=A0 > I don't agree that everything should go into GNU ELPA just because= it can The thing about GNU ELPA is that all the packages in there are acti= vely maintained and kept up to date with current version of Emacs. The mor = packages in there,
> the more work is required to release new versions of Emacs. IMO the GN= U ELPA repository is really for packages that represent core Emacs function= ality. For non-core things, we have MELPA, which=C2=A0 sounds like a better= fit for this
> package.=C2=A0
>
> Regardless, I think the better approach is to first develop and releas= e the package in MELPA. If it becomes popular and the community believes it= would be a good fit for GNU ELPA, it can be moved over to that repository.= =C2=A0
>
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2019 at 13:06, Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de>= ; wrote:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> speechd.el is not part of core emacs an= d therefore is not in the GNU
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> ELPA repository. It is GPL'd. With = something like the package you are
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> suggesting, you are probably best off d= eveloping it as a separate
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> project and once it becomes mature, see= what interest there is in
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> having it moved into becoming part of t= he Emacs project. I suspect
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> this is unlikely as it isn't core E= macs functionality, but you never
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> know. Of course, that doesn't mean = it cannot be a GNU project.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> BTW, you may want to choose a different= name from greader - there have
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> been packages in the past called greade= r, which were interfaces to the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> old Google Reader RSS interface.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I think you are confusing me with Michelange= lo, I'm someone else.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I don't know much about the matter, but = I wanted to understand why you
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0rejected the suggested package and why no on= e else commented.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Maybe it would help us who aren't that f= amiliar with the matter if
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Michelangelo could post his suggested packag= e, or a link to it, so that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we know what we speak about.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0BTW I had the impression that you objected t= hat Michelangelos package
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doesn't use speech-dispatcher, but AFAIU= he told that it does.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Anyway, if we haven't something like thi= s yet in Gnu Elpa, if it's
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0useful, why not add it there.=C2=A0 I didn&#= 39;t mean to add it to the core
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0distribution of course.
>
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael.
>
>
>
> --
> regards,
>
> Tim
>
> --
> Tim Cross
>
>
>


--
regards,
Tim

--
Tim Cross

--0000000000002d0bdb0580c7d3a5--