From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mathias Dahl Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Questions about isearch Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 01:27:10 +0100 Message-ID: References: <83lh9lx6oi.fsf@gnu.org> <83a8q1x1cn.fsf@gnu.org> <87h9k74pkw.fsf@gmail.com> <83bnafse4f.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141e7f4f57ebf052cc99846 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1456619271 21546 80.91.229.3 (28 Feb 2016 00:27:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 28 Feb 2016 00:27:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Artur Malabarba To: =?UTF-8?Q?Per_Starb=C3=A4ck?= , "emacs-devel@gnu.org" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Feb 28 01:27:50 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aZpD9-0002EG-0g for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 28 Feb 2016 01:27:47 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56911 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZpD8-0002pZ-AW for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 19:27:46 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:58933) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZpCt-0002pE-Ic for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 19:27:32 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZpCs-00053s-C1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 19:27:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-yw0-x235.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4002:c05::235]:36233) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aZpCs-00053H-6P; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 19:27:30 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-x235.google.com with SMTP id e63so95990148ywc.3; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 16:27:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KFuXArRZQFBD8Medg8otGaCpNt1k5abSK/Pr3izsa1c=; b=h/TmrFGhM6Cyaclfo1hphaL7Uaz6jyyGUU5qPA+aZ/dBLhsEY08CS20SuxTnRYphS9 RSAG+2f1aFVjZnsDm2FR+k6br4iJj2X35zRj3u2CfyvWQv8RqgUul9bfQ1unX7sml5XL cr0ZxGQeNBs7p/daCbZxe+bHsRFcwOeMWl9zPMZyy1EZTCaT4ZPRX0mnC1uOvouqtVBi ga50YFgdFEb08XSC8rJ2sppfmbKCDZXU2g+2g1PKkxZWEb2NWxLbMZIoPo9S8aSZ/YUM ufXCK7u+1JSL9p0zAFwqB1wi9VBIcQ4pwrkp/ZSbKM6ZzsFZDyMnY6tRdoFW74kptqoy oq4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KFuXArRZQFBD8Medg8otGaCpNt1k5abSK/Pr3izsa1c=; b=D22QxOdZrRy5skbUt0/EDyDRMX00Yu74k+sFSu9nOAl34LjM4iDcAKN6ACk0MpRdVS 8J8zgRNXcPtD/Tlou3LedJuws9LnLLgmF6qTAV2SHbRjoEjCAI/G0Mw7HumAcpETA6oi xZ2UPoM0fkKxzaLuuATeliA27rUj9Tr1IkgCnFy1ySVdg5FnvwCj+iV9EHbw5HeSf2GT lPJixd5EI+RZyCpoNCBscJfKhETMQt5ABDkSIYALqv3kT2+w2yCpNyd7vKY/gXyQy79Y schP0AgDQieJdHgqawWgtPirLGMqU5I4yWP+6qzQT8ur8IstkWSTpQQIx73YMs+s3hSO 68XQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIhQHWiOJdEDknAUi+LyVHBtBy7WPyt1WimRxVBjVibBCrDzX65Kxtq9BjaxdXvGHyiFVXUytWXQbCKIg== X-Received: by 10.129.31.131 with SMTP id f125mr4686183ywf.267.1456619249825; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 16:27:29 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.129.34.194 with HTTP; Sat, 27 Feb 2016 16:27:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4002:c05::235 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:200734 Archived-At: --001a1141e7f4f57ebf052cc99846 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Per Starb=C3=A4ck wrote: One answer I got was that it's possible to turn this off. Yes, it is, > but defaults are important for what impression you give. I haven't > been active on the list for some time, but when I have expressed > opinions on Emacs here before it has often been not thinking about > myself, but thinking about the students that I teach Emacs, so that > *I* can change settings is not enough for my consideration. > > Also character folding is a great feature! I don't want to turn it > off! It's just that it's bad to fold characters that are in no way > seen as variants but totally different letters. > I agree with Per that this new feature is problematic. I have used Emacs for soon 20 years and up until now, if I search for an "a" I find only "a". From my view, suddenly finding "=C3=A4" or "=C3=A5" as well would, in = my view, be to find "false hits". Surely one could argue that case folding has the same problem but I think those are less and it has been the default for as long as I have used Emacs and I think it is common in most programs to have this behavior by default. This new feature however I cannot remember seeing anywhere so it cannot be that important to have it turned on by default. I am sure the new feature is useful to some, but for me it will just be annoying. I have "=C3=A4" and "=C3=A5" keys on my keyboard so I have no pro= blem inputting them. When I visit other countries where people does not have such keyboards I simply turn on the Swedish input method swedish-postfix to enter these letters. I think having this feature on by default might risk annoy more users than it will benefit. I'm quite certain, if I tried to get a Swedish college to try out Emacs, that they would comment on such a feature as being quite strange. I do not agree it would be the same as finding a "u" when searching for "v", but still... Now that I know about this feature I will turn it off and enable it only when I need it, but I wish it would have been the other way around, that users which needs it would need to enable it. Sorry for coming late to the party on this one... /Mathias PS. Per mentioned that the scenario with "ide" matching "id=C3=A9" would be okay. I'm divided on that one. "=C3=A9" is not an official part of the Swedish alhpabet, like "=C3=A5" and "=C3=A4", so from some perspective it w= ould be okay, but it feels like a very slippery slope... Probably, as some has advocated here, if there would be a way to express the language for a buffer or region of text a feature like this *might* fit better. --001a1141e7f4f57ebf052cc99846 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Nov 27, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Per Starb=C3=A4ck <per.starback@gmail.co= m> wrote:

One answer I got was that it's possi= ble to turn this off. Yes, it is,
but defaults are important for what impression you give. I haven't
been active on the list for some time, but when I have expressed
opinions on Emacs here before it has often been not thinking about
myself, but thinking about the students that I teach Emacs, so that
*I* can change settings is not enough for my consideration.

Also character folding is a great feature! I don't want to turn it
off! It's just that it's bad to fold characters that are in no way<= br> seen as variants but totally different letters.

I agree with Per that this new feature is problematic. I have= used Emacs
for soon 20 years and up until now, if I search for a= n "a" I find only
"a". From my view, suddenly= finding "=C3=A4" or "=C3=A5" as well would, in my
view, be to find "false hits". Surely one could argue that = case folding
has the same problem but I think those are less and = it has been the
default for as long as I have used Emacs and I th= ink it is common in
most programs to have this behavior by defaul= t. This new feature however
I cannot remember seeing anywhere so = it cannot be that important to have
it turned on by default.

I am sure the new feature is useful to some, but for m= e it will just be
annoying. I have "=C3=A4" and "= =C3=A5" keys on my keyboard so I have no problem
inputting t= hem. When I visit other countries where people does not have
such= keyboards I simply turn on the Swedish input method swedish-postfix
<= div>to enter these letters.

I think having this fe= ature on by default might risk annoy more users
than it will bene= fit. I'm quite certain, if I tried to get a Swedish
college t= o try out Emacs, that they would comment on such a feature as
bei= ng quite strange. I do not agree it would be the same as finding a "u&= quot;
when searching for "v", but still...
Now that I know about this feature I will turn it off and enab= le it only
when I need it, but I wish it would have been the othe= r way around, that
users which needs it would need to enable it.<= /div>

Sorry for coming late to the party on this one...<= /div>

/Mathias

PS. Per mentione= d that the scenario with "ide" matching "id=C3=A9" woul= d be
okay. I'm divided on that one. "=C3=A9" is not= an official part of the
Swedish alhpabet, like "=C3=A5"= ; and "=C3=A4", so from some perspective it would be
ok= ay, but it feels like a very slippery slope... Probably, as some has
<= div>advocated here, if there would be a way to express the language for a
buffer or region of text a feature like this *might* fit better.


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