From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Anders Lindgren Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: OS X: Change default key bindings of CMD and ALT Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 07:02:43 +0100 Message-ID: References: <86r3i39gm8.fsf@gmail.com> <4EE5D522-7CDE-4430-AC67-133DD628F843@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11440176db090d052853a259 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451714573 14887 80.91.229.3 (2 Jan 2016 06:02:53 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Jan 2016 06:02:53 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel To: Random832 Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jan 02 07:02:52 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aFFH8-0006nd-K9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jan 2016 07:02:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37551 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFFH7-0003JP-Ma for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jan 2016 01:02:49 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56023) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFFH3-0003JH-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jan 2016 01:02:46 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFFH1-0004iX-RI for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jan 2016 01:02:45 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-vk0-x236.google.com ([2607:f8b0:400c:c05::236]:32833) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aFFH1-0004iT-LS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 02 Jan 2016 01:02:43 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-vk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id a188so230832257vkc.0 for ; Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:02:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=EHIXszxuyI0g/XG6wRJZN5gpPexjCXUiEizE1tAibzk=; b=tQJ1AvnuQ5rlBe3bIXzmcTwoA+cCEwsnTQAOfpVkIot7IpDEBHFfsnjEr8aZOqFVkE EoFu38eRf4A2abDyAfa5JDTiK3f8ScWLzRwwcx/IeyKmTq+SKKyyFhb4XQiEY4Q1zV0W zHBSNrzuK8Ejyfs9A14q1TiPU5fI3ZoyN04Vr6G5wdmw0FcX0IYPJhO6Tk89rWUzZt3E uLTQuCV+sZzzD1tlC1NYxZ+LGjPdsdOw2hJhyYFmPjb+8Bsmn6H+aEuCQIhmAKEwRABA xxbjzQL2IwNTMi+sJ3hOJGss/xYDbufkiagT7OK1E53vcIY58SOtHxH/eAiYGERGSnBS gBnA== X-Received: by 10.31.10.199 with SMTP id 190mr54130037vkk.51.1451714563212; Fri, 01 Jan 2016 22:02:43 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.31.214.131 with HTTP; Fri, 1 Jan 2016 22:02:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:400c:c05::236 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:197337 Archived-At: --001a11440176db090d052853a259 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I've decided to let the question rest -- we clearly can't agree on a layout that suits everybody and we're not allowed to make the change for Emacs 25.1 anyway. I think it's unfortunate, since 1) the default configuration of Emacs is unusable in large parts of the world and 2) the "ns" and the "mac" implementation will now have different defaults. This functionality is not called "compose", and it's confusing to > refer to it as such. "compose" is an X11 feature where you can type > something like "compose, a, a" for =C3=A5. > I used that term (within quotes) to distinguish between the "alt" key and the function of the key. If you have a better term to use in this discussion, feel free to suggest it. > > I've read a number of bug reports, questions, and comments regarding > > this. The motivation behind the proposed change is for Emacs to > > provide a decent default behaviour so that it doesn't scare away first > > time users. (Power user can easily reconfigure the keys using the > > `ns-xxx-modifier' variables.) > > The whole point of having command mapped to super is to allow for > key bindings that first time users expect. I think your proposal > would scare away more first time users than the current behavior. > I don't object to that -- it would have been great to provide keys both normal operating system keys as well as the keys for normal Emacs use. However, the situation is that on OS X, we're one key short (at least on European keyboards). We have four normal modifier keys: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, and Cmd. (In addition, there is the Esc key.) The following functions are wanted: Shift, Ctrl, Meta, Super (bound to common operating system keys), and "compose". Clearly, Shift and Ctrl should have their normal meaning. In my opinion, the same goes for the Alt key as it's used to write normal characters. This leaves the Cmd and Esc with two contenders: Meta and Super. Meta is so important that it needs a proper modifier key, which is why I suggested binding Cmd to Meta. On Windows and Linux only the right-hand Alt key (called "AltGr") > performs this function in the first place, so I'm not convinced that > it would be as surprising as you think it is. I'm aware of it, but it's uncommon in the OS X world. Are there any common keyboards (let's start with if there are any > sold by Apple - I think people who use third-party PC USB keyboards, > particularly that are not full 104/105-key keyboards, can be > considered "power users") that lack left and right option/alt keys? > Older Mac laptops don't have a right Alt. However, they have a keypad return key in that place, which can be mapped to Alt using other tools, so we can ignore them for the sake of this discussion. >From what I can find, even their "compact" keyboards, i.e. laptop > keyboards and the Magic Keyboard, have command and alt/option on > both sides, though they lack a right-hand control key). > Initially, I also considered the following: Right Alt - "Compose" Left Alt - Meta Cmd - Super However, I decided against it as it didn't feel right to bind the left and right keys differently. -- Anders Lindgren --001a11440176db090d052853a259 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi,

I've decided to let the question res= t -- we clearly can't agree on a layout that suits everybody and we'= ;re not allowed to make the change for Emacs 25.1 anyway. I think it's = unfortunate, since 1) the default configuration of Emacs is unusable in lar= ge parts of the world and 2) the "ns" and the "mac" imp= lementation will now have different defaults.



This functionality is not c= alled "compose", and it's confusing to
refer to it as such. "compose" is an X11 feature where you can ty= pe
something like "compose, a, a" for =C3=A5.
<= br>
I used that term (within quotes) to distinguish between the &= quot;alt" key and the function of the key. If you have a better term t= o use in this discussion, feel free to suggest it.

=C2=A0
> I've read a num= ber of bug reports, questions, and comments regarding
> this. The motivation behind the proposed change is for Emacs to
> provide a decent default behaviour so that it doesn't scare away f= irst
> time users. (Power user can easily reconfigure the keys using the
> `ns-xxx-modifier' variables.)

The whole point of having command mapped to super is to allow for key bindings that first time users expect. I think your proposal
would scare away more first time users than the current behavior.

I don't object to that -- it would have been= great to provide keys both normal operating system keys as well as the key= s for normal Emacs use. However, the situation is that on OS X, we're o= ne key short (at least on European keyboards).

We = have four normal modifier keys: Shift, Ctrl, Alt, and Cmd. (In addition, th= ere is the Esc key.)

The following functions are w= anted: Shift, Ctrl, Meta, Super (bound to common operating system keys), an= d "compose".

Clearly, Shift and Ctrl sho= uld have their normal meaning. In my opinion, the same goes for the Alt key= as it's used to write normal characters.

This= leaves the Cmd and Esc with two contenders: Meta and Super. Meta is so imp= ortant that it needs a proper modifier key, which is why I suggested bindin= g Cmd to Meta.


On Windo= ws and Linux only the right-hand Alt key (called "AltGr")
performs this function in the first place, so I'm not convinced that it would be as surprising as you think it is.

I'm aware of it, but it's uncommon in the OS X world.
<= div>

Are there any common keyboard= s (let's start with if there are any
sold by Apple - I think people who use third-party PC USB keyboards,
particularly that are not full 104/105-key keyboards, can be
considered "power users") that lack left and right option/alt key= s?

Older Mac laptops don't have a r= ight Alt. However, they have a keypad return key in that place, which can b= e mapped to Alt using other tools, so we can ignore them for the sake of th= is discussion.


From wha= t I can find, even their "compact" keyboards, i.e. laptop
keyboards and the Magic Keyboard, have command and alt/option on
both sides, though they lack a right-hand control key).

Initially, I also considered the following:
=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 Right Alt - "Compose"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Left Alt= - Meta
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cmd - Super

Howeve= r, I decided against it as it didn't feel right to bind the left and ri= ght keys differently.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- Anders Lind= gren

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