From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#9571: 24.0.50; user option to turn off bidi, please Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:13:45 +0200 Message-ID: References: <87obybg01n.fsf@gmail.com> <87hb43fsq0.fsf@gmail.com> <83zkhvr07u.fsf@gnu.org> <631B4E70034844D78E123FF1527968C2@us.oracle.com> <83mxdvqhee.fsf@gnu.org> <42AFDF737DB84A93858CA84ABA91A84D@us.oracle.com> <83fwjnqbxs.fsf@gnu.org> <1EB39F8E0391465CB3F1803054CAF35D@us.oracle.com> <249B07D27CD640E69D493B6FC05CD73E@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1316826883 4426 80.91.229.12 (24 Sep 2011 01:14:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:14:43 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 9571@debbugs.gnu.org, stepnem@gmail.com To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 24 03:14:39 2011 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7GpC-0002vk-TH for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Sep 2011 03:14:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53832 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7GpC-0002kD-Cw for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:14:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37524) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7Gp9-0002jv-Ay for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:14:36 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7Gp8-0007Dy-32 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:14:35 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:51535) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1R7Gp7-0007Du-WF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7Gpa-0005yx-N0 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:15:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Juanma Barranquero Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 9571 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 9571-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B9571.131682689822970 (code B ref 9571); Sat, 24 Sep 2011 01:15:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 9571) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Sep 2011 01:14:58 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7GpW-0005yR-CB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:14:58 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-yi0-f44.google.com ([209.85.218.44]) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1R7GpT-0005yJ-FZ for 9571@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:14:56 -0400 Original-Received: by yic13 with SMTP id 13so2892625yic.3 for <9571@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:14:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NAZLvY+VpeQXx+8kzIZdtlndMUIOoQ5Sx51Rdpzf+AU=; b=bGOWUrshjynTF3kcqGxndwBnQQFhODM18HDSBLUeTJPOAXLcZPU3w9kElMpTsmiGG3 l5uQfTaCW/IqeWey3KxBmuaJRMxLRaiDT0gNBFV3uY6WciptPL3xnYbR33lrE1lCRWt/ lzr9fwPHCn0Ahh36C9yRzadQE4oiG3NR3eoOI= Original-Received: by 10.68.32.133 with SMTP id j5mr13555916pbi.68.1316826865059; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:14:25 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.142.223.13 with HTTP; Fri, 23 Sep 2011 18:13:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <249B07D27CD640E69D493B6FC05CD73E@us.oracle.com> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.11 Precedence: list Resent-Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2011 21:15:02 -0400 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 1) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:51752 Archived-At: On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 02:32, Drew Adams wrote: > As Eli has said, we don't need his valuable time and > expertise for that. He's already been useful in this message thread by explaining that setting the variable to nil does not do what people thinks it does. > I don't think this bug report - which asks for a user option, should be c= losed, > or classified wontfix (already done), or sent to the wishlist. OK. > I think we should make the var an option now AND (based on what Eli has s= aid) > add an enhancement request to the wishlist for more development to suppor= t the > nil value - whether or not Eli is the only one on the planet who could ev= er hope > to respond to such a wish. Eli has said that he won't oppose someone adding the defcustom, so you can do both (sending a patch to add the defcustom, and remove the wishlist tag from the bug). > If you exclude things from the wishlist just because there is no one arou= nd > today who has the time to work on them, then it is not a wishlist. Of course. I just added today a wishlist item for datagram sockets on Windows, knowing full well that there aren't many people with the knowledge and the inclination to spend time implementing them. But experience of years shows that redisplay engine experts are few and far between. We can leave this as a wishlist, it's just that it won't likely serve any useful purpose. > No, you haven't been reading what I said. =C2=A0It's not about my prefere= nces. I meant, your preference of the display enginge being able to be turned off, even if you personally wouldn't want to do it. > Thinking, in fact, of you, Juanma, I read precisely that Wikipedia articl= e > BEFORE I wrote that sentence, being personally ignorant and indifferent t= o > limbosity. Why, pray tell, thinking of me? Because I'm nitpicky enough to answer to that, or because being a Spaniard I'm more likely to be Catholic (which I theoretically am, but not in fact)? > And that is _exactly_ why I added "(and perhaps never was)" immediately > following the words you quoted (but which you chose to cut). It's not that I chose to cut these words, is that I was only replying to the first words. So: > That article makes it clear that the situation wrt the Catholic Church is= less > than clear wrt "limbo" - even after P.B. XVI's 2007 publication, and that= there > have been multiple notions of "limbo" over the ages, etc. Yes. But the fact is, the position of the Catholic Church has not changed, recently or otherwise. Belief in the limbo has traditionally been, and still is, something that is not doctrine, but does not contradict doctrine. That's why I commented your "Limbo is apparently no more" and let the rest aside. I wasn't interested in discussing limbo's theology with you, but inform you that the news reports were far off the mark. > "And perhaps never was" sums up the situation quite accurately, as I read= that > Wikipedia article. Sums up the situation quite accurately. Which is unrelated to any recent change of status. > Then so is the same variable as a NON-option bogus. No, if its intended use is helping in debugging. > You cannot have it both ways. =C2=A0Either this is something useful for u= sers to know > about or it is not. And i don't want it both ways. I think is not useful for users to know. Note "useful". I'm not saying that they shouldn't be able to know it. Also note "I think". That's an opinion, I'm not claiming to know for a fact that it is not useful for them. No one really knows. > Who knows? =C2=A0Do you? I don't know, and neither do you. You ask for I change, I don't. So when the masses come here to bring down the walls, we can relent and give them the defcustom (I'm feeling generous today). Until then, it's customizability for customizability's sake. > But how on Earth will they know that? =C2=A0Saying anything about that in= the doc was > specifically verboten by Eli: Yes. It doesn't seem appropriate for the manual. But we have lot of docstrings that say: "internal use only" or somesuch. > To quote a famous person, why not? =C2=A0"Why are you opposed to a flag t= o turn bidi > display off?" Because it will create the false belief that it does something useful, so some users will mistakenly shot themselves in the foot. If you mean: why am I opposed to making the display engine have two code paths, one with bidi support and one without it, switchable with a flag... I'm neither for nor against, except that it will be a lot of work that nobody wants to do, it will make the display engine still harder to study (I'm just repeating what Eli said a few messages ago), and it's not clear that it will serve any useful purpose. > Why should you, Juama, who are familiar enough with buffer-local vars etc= . to > understand how to turn this off (if you wanted to), be able to do so; but= not > Jane Doe, who understans how to use Customize but knows nothing about > `setq-default'? I know lots of things, for lots of reasons, that are just garbage and/or non-useful. I don't see why should I try to help everyone know these things. I won't try to preclude anyone to learn them, of course, but I won't help anyone by getting them to learn to say "please" in irish, memorize an obsolete definition of the meter, or be able to recite the full name of the female protagonist of "The Fifth Element". More power to Jane Doe if she wants to read the Emacs Lisp Reference and know how to setq-default bidi-display-reordering. No one is really going to try to stop her. > Do you "really need" to keep this optional behavior to yourself and other= s with > Emacs-Lisp knowledge? Is that what I'm proposing? "Keeping it to myself"? I wasn't born knowing elisp, you know; and neither had I to submit to some hermetic mysteries' initiation to be allowed to read the manual. Quaerendo invenietis. > No more so than for any other variable. =C2=A0Nothing is guaranteed in Em= acs. =C2=A0User > options no more than other vars. =C2=A0You are making a mountain out of a= mole hill. A very small mountain, perhaps. A couple cubic meters of dirt, tops. > You forgot a paren.) Let down by cut&paste :-( > But I could actually live with that, provided the manual > still describes the variable fairly, as it does now (and hopefully a bit = more > clearly wrt what nil does). Glad to hear it. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma