From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: GnuTLS for W32 Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:32:25 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87vcosskhc.fsf@wanadoo.es> <831urgr2yr.fsf@gnu.org> <87r4zgsh2w.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ipks3zbo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87boqk3q69.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87aa634st8.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> <87fwfvsgfv.fsf@wanadoo.es> <877h17scdo.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87hb0b77nr.fsf@lifelogs.com> <8739bvs27m.fsf@wanadoo.es> <87ty4b4329.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87hb0b3yoe.fsf@lifelogs.com> <6ED011D5-E185-44C6-BB31-A445A4E5F83A@gmail.com> <87wr976otx.fsf@lifelogs.com> <87ipkq6yy5.fsf@lifelogs.com> <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1325806407 4796 80.91.229.12 (5 Jan 2012 23:33:27 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2012 23:33:27 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jan 06 00:33:23 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwoD-0005u2-OH for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 06 Jan 2012 00:33:22 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:42586 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1RiwoD-0000tN-9v for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:21 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:37859) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwo9-0000t1-Pw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:18 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwnz-0002EP-6N for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:17 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pw0-f41.google.com ([209.85.160.41]:44666) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Riwnz-0002EL-1i for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:33:07 -0500 Original-Received: by pbdd2 with SMTP id d2so978821pbd.0 for ; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:33:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/5v8nsAVSm9duOVtyP4SaO2NGtpr/Kuw9/jmgK5/kdQ=; b=HAaPVQ95/q0QARn+drWjsuF/mytF9MO6jwFzDPBdNNCviU7UspQAA3OPOXvO/4rCFr ysIE8q7ZhczNCWcMBFwYgW4WkI+N/ZF2J905qxXQ9jAHeHf6cPihsqV0rxFbyyMRnWpO 6Z2wrlyJfb2I2/3EZi7KSDlbPlcW8qLDRzi24= Original-Received: by 10.68.75.132 with SMTP id c4mr9827781pbw.23.1325806386150; Thu, 05 Jan 2012 15:33:06 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: by 10.142.247.28 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Jan 2012 15:32:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <3FB40138-C766-4A45-8E5A-4E404449995E@gmail.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-Received-From: 209.85.160.41 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:147367 Archived-At: On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 00:14, chad wrote: > When you do manual checks, do you run a program that checks for updates, > downloads them, and then installs them; or do you load up a web browser, > visit some project pages from memory/bookmarks/etc, and start downloading > and unpacking zip files? Well, for the operating system I do the first, because it is what the system allows. For other software, I do visit the page, unload zip files or whatever and unpack them. > I'm trying to understand your reasoning for objecting to a default settin= g that > would notify the user about critical issues. =C2=A0Either I'm not underst= anding what > you're saying, or you're saying that the default users shouldn't have a f= eature > that many (I'd say `vast majority', but `many' is enough) because it migh= t > cause you to have to type `n' a few times, and that doesn't match what I > expect from seeing your efforts on emacs-devel. My objection is at a more fundamental level: we should not be distributing binaries. For Windows, we are forced (more or less), because most Windows users do not have a build environment, so we should distribute the minimal binary that can possibly work and leave options to the user. The objection is twofold: on one hand, the more we do, the less "customizable" the system is. Of course a dedicated user can change anything, but defaults tend to be widely used and rarely questioned, at least on systems with (relatively) unexperienced users, like Windows. On the other hand, and as I've already said three or four times, this is a software development project, not a packaging one. We don't build an "Emacs distribution", we distribute Emacs source tarballs. That's what I think we should continue doing. I see a lot of people arguing how secure and convenient will be to have automatic upgrades, and I wonder why nobody but me finds weird that we are dedicating so much energy to discuss *binaries* in the first place. At which moment did we switch goals? Once we have this wonderful system for the Windows binaries, are we going to start distributing binary tarballs for RedHat, Ubuntu or gNewSense? Is that what we want to do? Certainly is not what I want to do, and it pains me seeing resources diverted to that. > To my knowledge, emacs is the *only* software I use under windows that do= esn't do this, but I don't use windows very often, and mostly just for play= ing certain computer games. Can you suggest a few `user' applications that = don't? FreeOffice. Battle for Wesnoth. TrueCrypt. Just out of my head, I haven't checked the software installed in my computer. =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Juanma