all messages for Emacs-related lists mirrored at yhetil.org
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>,
	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: How to restore the layout?
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 02:25:57 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAAeL0SSSgq=5eCT7vjeO2zWeLp351UPVeQDx0fj0_nmXwrgiZg@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <b5fd6f62-79f9-4b6f-822e-46e6371f6dbb@default>

> On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

> "Already" when? You mean before restoring a desktop?  If so, agreed.

Yes. in the init file, or via X resources / W32 registry.

> Restore when?

In all this discussion, when I say "restore" I'm mostly talking about
automatic (desktop) restoration while starting emacs, but I don't
think a later M-x desktop-read <RET> would be any different.

> Sorry, I don't follow you.  Restore how - via a desktop?

Yes.

> I don't see `initial-frame-alist' entering the discussion anyway, but that
> might be because I don't make any use of it.  I use only `default-frame-alist'.

That doesn't really change much of what is being discussed.

> Typically, a user with a standalone minibuffer will (must?) set it up when Emacs starts,
> from the command line or the init file.  If s?he then moves that frame
> for some reason, I would NOT assume that s?he wants the next Emacs session to
> remember the last position/size of that frame.  I would assume that the same
> startup code would be used to configure the frame anew the same way.

That's weird. If I set up default-frame-alist to create frames of size
80x50, and then I resize them, after desktop-save/desktop-read (or
exit Emacs and restart it) I would expect them to be just like I left
them, not how the "code to configure the frame[s] anew" would make
them. That's the *whole* reason I'm using desktop-restore-frames. I
assume you would expect the same. How is the minibuffer-only frame any
different?

> IOW, I would assume that if a user wants to change what the standalone minibuffer
> frame looks like, s?he would do that in the startup code.

Yes, for new minibuffer frames. But when you're using
desktop-restore-frames, you're asking your frames, and the changes (in
size, position, window setup and buffers displayed) to be
persistent...

Hmm. While writing the above sentences, it dawned on me: it seems like
you're thinking of desktop-restore-frames as a way to set
(quasi-)immutable snapshots (or desktop bookmarks). You want to use
them to be able to roll back to defined window&frame states. Is that
so?

That is, of course, perfectly valid, but desktop-restore-frames must
also support a more transient use case, where what the user wants is
for the current state to be saved upon exit and restored on restart.
If I were to use a separate minibuffer-only frame, my expectation
would definitely not be for that frame to appear always at the sample
place, but at the place it was when I exited from Emacs. To me, that's
not a new frame recreated anew in each Emacs run (though it really is,
from Emacs' POV); it's the same one I moved aside or resized in my
previous working session.

> Or perhaps, if there is already a minibuffer frame, just MODIFY its parameters
> based on the recorded ones from the desktop - as opposed to creating a new
> minibuffer frame.

That's more or less what I'm trying right now.

> In any case, I think you need to avoid trying to create another minibuffer frame.
> And avoiding that might just eliminate some of the problems I saw.  (Dunno.)

Yes, agreed. Creating a second minibuffer-only frame would be a bug.

> What "new minibuffer frame"?  My suggestion was to NOT record or restore
> a minibuffer frame.  So restoring a desktop should not be creating any "new
> minibuffer frame".

I think you're talking about a desktop-save/desktop-read use case:
that is, you say that if you have a current setup, with a
minibuffer-only frame, and you do M-x desktop-read, no new
minibuffer-only frame should be created. And I was talking about
kill-emacs / run emacs. A new minibuffer-only frame is created.

> It's hard to talk about this and follow each other, with just descriptions.
> I suggest we take it off list for a while and we stick to easy-to-follow
> recipes.

OK, though public discussion helps to integrate other people's
opinions. Surely you're not the only one using multi-frame setups and
minibuffer-only frames :-)

> IOW, we might be able to (optionally) accommodate
> save/restore of a minibuffer-only frame, if the restore operation avoided
> trying to create a new standalone minibuffer frame when one already exists.

Of course, that's always been the goal. Let's not forget that we're
talking about unfinished code and evolving designs here.

> Great.  Good to hear that at least the simple solution works.  (That should
> be enough for my own use.)

Yes, though it wouldn't be for mine, if I used a setup like yours. Now
would be a great time for different opinions to enter the discussion
(hint, hint).

> As to the missing appeal:
>
> 1. Single place to look for all user command input and echoed messages.
>    No matter what frame might be selected, your visual focus for commands and
>    messages is always the same.

In my case, that would be a disadvantage, when using multiple frames
(for a one-work-frame, one-minibuffer-frame, I could bear it, though
it wouldn't really be much different or better than the default
setup). Non-locality kills me. That's the same reason, I suppose, I
can not stand the recentering scrolling of stock Emacs and must resort
to line-by-line scrolling.

> 2. Long, long minibuffer - full-screen width.
>    And in my case, expands to any number of lines.  (I use the minibuffer for
>    lots of stuff, including sometimes large sexps.)

You don't need minibuffer-only frames for that. I have my minibuffer
set up so it can grow up to 1/3 of the frame height, which I find more
than enough for most uses. You could potentially make it almost
full-screen height.

>    However, if Emacs did dynamicaly show/hide minibuffers in frames that way,
>    it might be distracting/disorienting.  In any case, I would prefer the
>    single-location, permanent, standalone minibuffer frame solution.

Goes to show why both of us use the Extensible, Customizable Text Editor.

   J



  reply	other threads:[~2013-07-02  0:25 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 264+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2013-06-22 13:45 How to restore the layout? Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-22 23:01 ` Xue Fuqiao
2013-06-23 10:24   ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-23  8:26 ` martin rudalics
2013-06-23 10:35   ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-24 17:05     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-24 17:23       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-24 17:30         ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-24 17:52           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-24 18:18             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-24 18:33               ` Stephen Berman
2013-06-24 18:33             ` Stephen Berman
2013-06-24 20:10               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-24 20:11                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-24 20:22                 ` Jambunathan K
2013-06-24 20:28                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-24 20:57                     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-24 22:47                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-24 23:38                         ` Juri Linkov
2013-06-24 23:43                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-25  6:03                             ` Juri Linkov
2013-06-25 16:05                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-25  6:46                         ` martin rudalics
2013-06-25 15:32                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-25 16:32                             ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-25 16:38                               ` martin rudalics
2013-06-25 17:21                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-25 21:36                                   ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-25 21:40                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-26  0:52                                       ` chad
2013-06-26 14:03                                         ` chad
2013-06-26 17:21                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-26 18:27                                             ` martin rudalics
2013-06-26 23:05                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27  2:35                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-27  2:57                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27  4:30                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-27  8:55                                                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27 15:20                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-27 15:23                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27  8:05                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-06-27  9:00                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27  9:38                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-27 21:02                                                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28  6:34                                                         ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 11:53                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 14:02                                                             ` martin rudalics
2013-06-27 13:29                                       ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-27 14:05                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27 14:31                                           ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-27 14:45                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27 18:27                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-06-27 20:30                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27 20:49                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-06-27 20:52                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27 21:00                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-06-27 21:03                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-27 23:33                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28  6:07                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28  8:17                                                               ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 11:54                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 11:48                                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 17:55                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 18:15                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-28 17:22                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-28 17:51                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 19:36                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2013-06-29  0:54                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-29  8:29                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-06-29 22:06                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30  9:35                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-06-30 10:32                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 12:55                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-06-30 17:55                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-01  6:48                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-04 20:41                                                                                   ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-04 21:34                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-04 23:10                                                                                       ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-04 23:19                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05  7:45                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05  9:37                                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 14:02                                                                                               ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-05 14:55                                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 15:02                                                                                                   ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-05 15:10                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 15:30                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 15:39                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 15:54                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 16:02                                                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 17:03                                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 17:06                                                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 17:37                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06 14:32                                                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-07 10:57                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 15:21                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 15:26                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 15:39                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 15:40                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05 15:55                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 17:04                                                                                                       ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-05 17:09                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05  7:45                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 10:07                                                                                           ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-05 12:58                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 13:13                                                                                               ` Jan Djärv
2013-07-05 13:41                                                                                               ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-05 14:42                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05 18:22                                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-07-05 20:30                                                                                                     ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-06  8:47                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06  9:10                                                                                                         ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-06 10:44                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06 11:04                                                                                                             ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-06 13:06                                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06 13:18                                                                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-07-06 13:43                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06 13:53                                                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-07-07 10:56                                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06 14:27                                                                                                                 ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-07-06 18:57                                                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2013-07-07 10:57                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-07 11:32                                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-07 12:46                                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-07-07 15:53                                                                                                                         ` Drew Adams
2013-07-08  6:47                                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-08 13:56                                                                                                                             ` Drew Adams
2013-07-08 17:29                                                                                                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-09  9:08                                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-07-09  9:07                                                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-07-09 15:32                                                                                                                                 ` Drew Adams
2013-07-10  7:20                                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-10 13:50                                                                                                                                     ` Drew Adams
2013-07-06  9:13                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-06 10:44                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-06 14:39                                                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05  7:44                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-06-29  8:51                                                                   ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-29 18:00                                                                     ` chad
2013-06-29 18:12                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-29 22:36                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 15:27                                                                       ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-30 18:12                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28  8:13                                                     ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28  8:31                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28  8:46                                                         ` Jan Djärv
     [not found]                                                           ` <51CD5489.10902@g>
2013-06-28  9:16                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 10:01                                                             ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 10:19                                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 10:26                                                                 ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 11:50                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-06-29  8:47                                                                     ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-29 22:26                                                                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 15:25                                                                         ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-30 18:09                                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 12:46                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 14:03                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 14:58                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 15:06                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 17:53                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-29  0:49                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 15:22                                                                       ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 15:32                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 15:53                                                                           ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 12:05                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 13:06                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 13:22                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 14:51                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 15:22                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 17:52                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-29  0:47                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-29  8:39                                                                               ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-29 22:18                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-29 23:48                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2013-06-30 10:16                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 16:30                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2013-06-30 18:15                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30  7:51                                                                                   ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-30  9:35                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-30 10:01                                                                                       ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-30 10:11                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2013-06-30 10:34                                                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 10:29                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 12:55                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-06-30 18:03                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-30 21:32                                                                                           ` Jan Djärv
2013-07-01  0:28                                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-01  3:31                                                                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-01  6:50                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-07-01 10:38                                                                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-02 10:38                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-07-02 16:32                                                                                                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03  9:27                                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 10:36                                                                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03 12:42                                                                                                             ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 14:20                                                                                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03 14:32                                                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-04  9:35                                                                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 14:08                                                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2013-07-08  2:50                                                                                                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-08  6:47                                                                                                         ` martin rudalics
2013-07-08 12:13                                                                                                           ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-01 14:11                                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2013-07-01 14:40                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-01 16:03                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2013-07-01 16:37                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-01 18:03                                                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2013-07-02  0:25                                                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero [this message]
2013-07-02  3:46                                                                                                               ` Drew Adams
2013-07-02 17:32                                                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-02 19:40                                                                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2013-07-03  9:03                                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03  9:34                                                                                                                       ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 10:38                                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03 12:42                                                                                                                           ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 14:35                                                                                                                             ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-04  9:35                                                                                                                               ` martin rudalics
2013-07-04 14:17                                                                                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-05  7:43                                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-05  9:35                                                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03 14:08                                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2013-07-03 14:54                                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03  9:27                                                                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 14:08                                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2013-07-03  9:27                                                                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-07-03 10:37                                                                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03 14:08                                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2013-07-03 15:16                                                                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-07-03 17:01                                                                                                                           ` Drew Adams
2013-06-30 15:23                                                                                   ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-30 15:34                                                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 14:03                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 15:12                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 10:22                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 11:50                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 12:11                                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 12:24                                                                     ` Angelo Graziosi
2013-06-28 13:02                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 14:07                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 14:59                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 12:08                                                                 ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 13:07                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 13:29                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 14:53                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 15:24                                                                         ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-29  8:03                                                                     ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-29  8:11                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-30 15:29                                                                         ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-30 15:39                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-06-28 12:00                                                               ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 12:31                                                                 ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 13:18                                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 14:26                                                                     ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 15:19                                                                       ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 14:03                                                                   ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 15:13                                                                     ` Jan Djärv
2013-06-28 15:14                                                                     ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 14:02                                                                 ` martin rudalics
2013-06-28 15:10                                                                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2013-06-28 16:17                                                                     ` martin rudalics
2013-06-29  8:41                                                                 ` Stephen Leake
2013-06-28 13:29                                                             ` Drew Adams
2013-06-25  3:22               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2013-06-24 17:38         ` martin rudalics
2013-06-23 12:28   ` Juanma Barranquero

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to='CAAeL0SSSgq=5eCT7vjeO2zWeLp351UPVeQDx0fj0_nmXwrgiZg@mail.gmail.com' \
    --to=lekktu@gmail.com \
    --cc=drew.adams@oracle.com \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=rudalics@gmx.at \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git

This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.