From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Juanma Barranquero Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#14939: 24.3.50; `make-variable-frame-local' deprecation - alternative? Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 02:02:39 +0200 Message-ID: References: <9c76d260-9793-4ed4-a3b5-fc9aca408034@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1374624250 26485 80.91.229.3 (24 Jul 2013 00:04:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 00:04:10 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 14939@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Jul 24 02:04:10 2013 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYq-000418-Rz for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 24 Jul 2013 02:04:09 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54613 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYp-00058h-TE for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:04:08 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59214) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYm-00058c-1x for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:04:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYk-0001La-TN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:04:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:51358) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYk-0001LW-PK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:04:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYk-0003gC-6e for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:04:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Juanma Barranquero Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 00:04:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 14939 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 14939-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B14939.137462420814065 (code B ref 14939); Wed, 24 Jul 2013 00:04:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 14939) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jul 2013 00:03:28 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45674 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mYB-0003el-So for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:03:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-ee0-f52.google.com ([74.125.83.52]:53190) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1V1mY9-0003eN-Km for 14939@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 20:03:26 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-ee0-f52.google.com with SMTP id c50so4870691eek.39 for <14939@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:03:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=LuVY0VLyAikwoHa6Rb1ZHT908cDua5Ek5ug+qJ/fuOQ=; b=BRxn6y5BHWsyoKE+AdsO9UcN64ZBY8xdngC39hAKSydJsrw+2cEorULAvhBV2gF0Gw 7DgdBl/84TjbiKJWMOZjTK0UWOYTw4tdFb4eDEcUaJ1FasclzUEuaGtTRD8GwsXsuf5C 3Q6zrRQDWGqvq3tkPvnn/n39xFP7k7b9sws/Q7x9oSq4CnS6mAyynPOu/SoyWwbSpTTV 7MskKX97BJyjYgGueFDSYRo2JSUN6NZ09RZC18w1CgwSuIZxsr4VOxyyGpi5fgO7W+eh WbG5YjPLX+dHDJKaIk44vdezpkgr8oR41RmZcTTFYbWi6RIPvDXUw25yetfSFUK2hdmj nRIw== X-Received: by 10.15.36.133 with SMTP id i5mr35250593eev.52.1374624199892; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:03:19 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.14.142.4 with HTTP; Tue, 23 Jul 2013 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:76611 Archived-At: On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > That's fallacious. My code has been working fine for those six years, > and still works fine, because deprecation does not mean desupport. IOW, > if it still works, why would people think to complain? "The very fact", > indeed - it "surely" does not say anything at all. Will all due respect, Drew, it's your argument that I find fallacious. You say yourself that your code is not failing, and yet we're discussing this in a bug thread that you started *because* of the deprecation... So yes, if you're the only one to take that step in five or six years, I'd say that speaks quite loudly. People who make heavy use of frame-local variables and is worried about the deprecation should surely take notice and bring the issue, but none did. I'd bet the reason is, simply, that not many people use that feature. When the whole issue of make-variable-frame-local was discussed in emacs-devel in 2007, I did a search through the 'net and didn't really find many uses of it (as in, almost none). I'd bet the number has not grown since then. > You say that there are some subtle bugs. Well, at least for my code that > uses `make-variable-frame-local' I have never run into a problem. Why > remove the simple use of frame-local variables in general just because > there might be some corner-case subtle bugs somewhere? That's for Stefan to decide (and he already has made his opinion clear), but my answer would be: Not because some subtle bugs, but because it makes Emacs source code (and manuals) more complex, and it is not really used at all, except for a few very isolate cases. And removing frame-local variables will be back-incompatible, but easily fixable via normal frame parameters, which is a bit less convenient, but vastly clearer. > This is a move backward, IMO. Without knowing just what problems you are > alluding to, I would guess that they might involve variable capture when > there are a mix of frame-local, buffer-local, and local variables with > the same name. Frame-local and buffer-local is currently impossible because there were subtle interactions; you can check the emacs-devel archives if you're interested, but IIRC there was a case where *accessing* the value of a simultaneously buffer-local/frame-local variable could alter what it would return *later* when accessed as buffer-local or frame-local. Madness.